Pronunciation watch

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Eine Alpensinfonie,

If I remember correctly, the D'Oyley Carte chorus seem a bit confused about this on their recording!

Iolanthe is still relevant,

Throughout the years
The House of Peers
Did nothing in particular,
And did it very well!

On both of my D'Oyley Carte recordings, the Peers go out of their way to differentiate, singing "clARses" and "mEsses".

(Similarly, with stones and skons )

[vinteuil]

ff,

I've read the above several times and I'm still not sure what your crumpets or your pikelets look like.

.

Does this help? -

“The earliest published recipe for crumpets of the kind known now is from Elizabeth Raffald (1769). Ayto (1993), in an entertaining essay, discusses a possible 14th century ancestor, the crompid cake, and the buckwheat griddle cakes (called crumpit) which appeared from the late 17th century onwards. He also illuminates the sexual connotations of crumpet, pointing out that it is now used of sexually attractive men as well as well as women, and that there was an analogous use of muffin (for women) in 19th century Canadian English.
It seems clear enough that there is a connection with Welsh crempog (pancake) and Breton krampoch (buckwheat pancake).
Reading the collection of crumpet, muffin (qv), and pikelet (qv) recipes made by Elizabeth David (1977) underlines the confusion of method and terminology between these three forms of yeasted pancake cooked on a griddle. A consensus might be that crumpets are made with a thinner batter than muffins, hence the need to confine them in rings (though this was not invariable), and hence too the holes in the top. Muffins are baked thicker, thick enough to be pulled asunder after toasting, which crumpets would never be. Pikelets seem a northern usage – though perhaps originally Welsh if the proposed derivation from bara pyglyd (‘pitchy bread’) is accepted. Again the consensus is that the pikelet is near identical to a crumpet, though the batter is thinner still and baked without a ring on the griddle, thus much more like a yeasted pancake.”
[Alan Davidson ‘Oxford Companion to Food’]

[Don Petter]

vint,

Thanks for that! It does pretty much agree with my experience of pikelets and crumpets, though I would say that a pikelet is not 'near identical to a crumpet', in that for me a pikelet is quite yellowish in colour, while a crumpet is white, so there must be a difference in batter as well cooking/construction.

Bringing muffins into the picture can only complicate the issue. I have never experienced these, except in America as 'English muffins', which may or may not be what the English would expect. I remember them only by allusion in children's books referring to the muffin man with his tray and bell. (Probably Alison Uttley in the Sam Pig adventures, or some such. )

[mangerton]

stolen or not, how do we pronounce Stone of Scone?

I've not been near a computer all day....

hercule, it's pronounced "Stone" (rhymes with bone) "of Scone" (rhymes with moon).

See my remarks on the town of Scone above. The stone was kept* at nearby Scone Palace, where the kings of Scotland were crowned.

* until it was stolen by Edward I aka "malleus Scotorum". I am aware that that statement begs so many questions. Was it "stolen"? Was the stone removed by Edward the real stone? It seems scarcely credible that it was. The Abbot of Scone Abbey had plenty of time to hide it, and many believe that he did.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone

As with all these ancient stories, you pays your money, and you takes your choice.

[french frank]

that's a very good point, well made

On the pikelet / crumpet question - yes, I recall from sojourns at Yorkshire grandparents' that pikelets are similar (one brown smooth side, the other pitted with holes) but about half the thickness of your standard 'pack of six' crumpet, and maybe wider by half and inch or so. Melted butter and honey running into all the little holes... Yum yum yum...

For Don: this is what I now understand to be *a* usual difference between pikelets and crumpets. *Our* pikelets (which you could buy loose at the bakers) were just like other people's crumpets. But I still don't like calling them crumpets .

I think of drop scones as being slightly sweet and yellow, whereas pikelets/crumpets are a grey-y off-white colour. and not sweet at all

Today's muffins, which look like overblown homemade cup-type cakes, can be be chocolate-y and eaten with jam for breakfast in street cafes (eugh!), are not at all like what I think of as muffins which aren't flavoured, are flat on top and a cross between scone and bread mixture.

[vinteuil]

Today's muffins, which look like overblown homemade cup-type cakes, can be be chocolate-y and eaten with jam for breakfast in street cafes (eugh!), are not at all like what I think of as muffins which aren't flavoured, are flat on top and a cross between scone and bread mixture.

Fr: Fr: your "today's muffins" sound to me like 'American muffins' as opposed to 'English muffins'. I do not need to tell you that Alan Davidson has a lengthy couple of paragraphs on the muffin question....

[Don Petter]

For Don: this is what I now understand to be *a* usual difference between pikelets and crumpets. *Our* pikelets (which you could buy loose at the bakers) were just like other people's crumpets. But I still don't like calling them crumpets .

I think of drop scones as being slightly sweet and yellow, whereas pikelets/crumpets are a grey-y off-white colour. and not sweet at all

Today's muffins, which look like overblown homemade cup-type cakes, can be be chocolate-y and eaten with jam for breakfast in street cafes (eugh!), are not at all like what I think of as muffins which aren't flavoured, are flat on top and a cross between scone and bread mixture.

We may not agree on 'pikelet' terminology, but I'm absolutely with you on drop scones and crumpets (colour and sweetness). And your thoughtful muffins are just as I imagine them, as well.

[Mary Chambers]

Proper English muffins can be found in supermarkets. They are flat and round like crumpets, but a little thicker and bigger, with no holes. They are just yeasty bread, not usually sweet, and much healthier than the cakey American thing that has come to predominate.

Like Don Petter, when I was a child they only existed in books. I liked the sound of them. 'Muffin' is such a comforting sort of word. In nursery rhyme books there were pictures of 'The muffin man/who lived in Drury Lane' with his tray of muffins on his head, and a bell to attract customers, but I was really confused when in the last year of junior school we read Thackeray's The Rose and the Ring. The first paragraph describes the King at breakfast. and his 'august muffins'. What on earth, I wondered, had August to do with it? It has stuck in my mind ever since.

[Don Petter]

Proper English muffins can be found in supermarkets.

.....

The first paragraph describes the King at breakfast. and his 'august muffins'. What on earth, I wondered, had August to do with it? It has stuck in my mind ever since.

Yet another supermarket product that once used to be seasonal - nothing's fun any more.

[Anna]

To me, muffins are a bit floury and as Mary says, yeasty bread and just ideal for filling with bacon and egg for breakfast (to be honest, if you don't fill them with anything you might as well not bother with them) American muffins are not very nice at all and too sweet and stick to the roof of your mouth. Pikelets are drop scones, or Scotch pancakes often dried fruit is incorporated. Crumpets just give you indigestion and are not worth bothering about either. Scones are pronunced Skons. And are delicious with jam and cream. Cheese scones are wonderful.

[PatrickOD]

I thought I knew what a pancake was. Now I don't know my muffin from a hole in a crumpet. I think I'll stick to sliced pan! Pass the biscuits, please.

[Don Petter]

Crumpets just give you indigestion and are not worth bothering about either..

But it's worth it! All that lovely butter dripping down to fill the holes ...

Cheese scones are wonderful.

No, No! A travesty!

[Ferretfancy]

Just to confuse the issue, Booth's supermarket in Windermere sells a delightful structure called a Selkirk Bannock, a rich flat fruit bread. I've never been able to find it anywhere else, perhaps scotty can advise ?

[Anna]

No, No! A travesty!

Seriously Cheddar Cheese Skons, topped with Philadelphia and chopped walnuts. have you never tried that? Guaranteed to blow your socks off.

[Bryn]

Selkirk Bannock recipe.