Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[oddoneout]

But we must beware of being too critical lest we be publicly lambasted as self-elected snobs.

If it's of any comfort(probably not since I'm evidently beyond redemption anyway) at least one member of the despised/suspect demographic is not offended. I am finding the various comments interesting and in some cases amusing.
There are things I don't like about the latest version of this programme, some of which, despite slight tweaks, are unfortunately here to stay in some form or other I suspect(listener 'input' cluttering up the playing time - I prefer to hear twittering outside from the feathered population), but there are always items that for me transcend the dross. That may be because of personal memories, regard for a particular composer/performer, something with which I'm unfamiliar and glad to have been introduced to. In addition I don't have so much of an issue with hearing what is considered to be 'bad' or 'not suitable for R3' music, so the ALW piece didn't cause offence for instance.
Having said all that I would not welcome this approach straying further into the day's output. Despite being such a philistine I do like to hear complete works, full concerts and live performances.

[oddoneout]

Talking of gigs, albums, tracks and songs is the language of the casually familiar which soon or later spreads to the common speech. As usual, it's the popular taking over. Innit. Like. A natural law.

I blame Nigel Kennedy....

[cloughie]

Not necessarily! One of the good things about the app is the ability to download anything on the iPlayer to your phone / tablet, for 30 days. It demands a little forethought, admittedly - but with a couple of TTNs in your phone, you can listen anywhere without any sort of connection. En vélo, for instance (I was pedalling in the park earlier with Jazz Record Requests in the ears, most agreeably)

Got the right gear then!

[Sir Velo]

Getting big, satisfied audiences is more important than serving minorities - of a certain kind, anyway. And my guess is that Essential Classics not only has a (relatively) big, fat audience - it has - but they are also satisfied customers, with the BBC's Audience Appreciation Index around 80.

Does that figure include only those who listen to the programme or also those who have given up on it? If the former, I'm not sure what you can deduce from that since only complete morons are likely to carry on listening to shows they don't like, aren't they?

The minority who are dissatisfied get elbowed out.

But who in this case are the minority? Does the Essential Classics audience constitute a majority of the British populace, or even the total reach of Radio 3? Clearly not. When this programme first started, many were quick to mention that the majority of loyal radio 3 listeners gave up on this programme. As a matter of interest, do you know what the old average audience ratings were for CD Masters? Personal recollection is that there was probably little to choose in absolute numbers which suggests that large segments of the audience would listen whatever was served up.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh depress me even more. Wiki: Gig is slang for a live musical performance. Originally coined in the 1920s by jazz musicians.

Yes - but in the same way that many violinists refer to their instruments as "fiddles", so many other performers refer to their professional engagements as "gigs". It is a modest, jocular way of discussing their work, and has nothing to do with the demographic of the audience for Essential Classics as perceived by Ms Klein.

[underthecountertenor]

All of which tends to support Rex's view that this programme is put out for meejah types, and jobbing musos, and not for the informed classical music lover.

A rather cryptic comment UTCT! Leaving aside the tantalising implication as to whether you and Ollie are no longer on the best of terms, is it not plausible that if OK was listening today, and again, not quite sure on what basis you arrive at that deduction, is it not possible that he received a tip off from his agent; rather than his being a devotee of Ms Klein's, or of bleeding chunks of populist pap?

I wasn't talking about 'meejah types', and it's a bit presumptuous, not to say rude, of you to gloss my reference to 'professional classical musicians' as 'jobbing musos', let alone to suggest that they are to be contrasted with 'the informed classical music lover.' I'm talking about people who not only perform (and/or compose) classical (broadly defined) music to a very high level but also (funnily enough) know a lot about classical (broadly defined) music, attend gigs (yes) when they're not performing in them, listen to music at home, and have at least as good a critical ear for the quality of music and its performance as anyone on this board. And many of them do listen to Breakfast, Essential Classics, In Tune et al.

As to Oliver Knussen, sadly I have never met him (so would not presume the easy familiarity of calling him Ollie). The one friend of mine who knows him really well now lives in the USA, so the chances of an introduction are minimal. I know that he was listening today, as PT mentioned on air that he had contacted the programme to correct a reference to the Dennis Brain/Peter Pears recording of the Britten Serenade, as it was the Tuckwell/Pears that was in fact played (so he must have been listening with more than half an ear). I don't recall his music having been featured on Breakfast this morning, so your pretty wild speculation about a tip off appears to be baseless. 'Ms Klein' (why do you style her thus after so matily referring to Ollie?) doesn't present Breakfast, so I don't understand your reference to her. Your 7 Last Words are just the usual lazy cliched pap that I've come to expect.

[underthecountertenor]

If it's of any comfort(probably not since I'm evidently beyond redemption anyway) at least one member of the despised/suspect demographic is not offended. I am finding the various comments interesting and in some cases amusing.
There are things I don't like about the latest version of this programme, some of which, despite slight tweaks, are unfortunately here to stay in some form or other I suspect(listener 'input' cluttering up the playing time - I prefer to hear twittering outside from the feathered population), but there are always items that for me transcend the dross. That may be because of personal memories, regard for a particular composer/performer, something with which I'm unfamiliar and glad to have been introduced to. In addition I don't have so much of an issue with hearing what is considered to be 'bad' or 'not suitable for R3' music, so the ALW piece didn't cause offence for instance.
Having said all that I would not welcome this approach straying further into the day's output. Despite being such a philistine I do like to hear complete works, full concerts and live performances.

Ah, sanity!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As to Oliver Knussen, sadly I have never met him (so would not presume the easy familiarity of calling him Ollie). The one friend of mine who knows him really well now lives in the USA, so the chances of an introduction are minimal. I know that he was listening today, as PT mentioned on air that he had contacted the programme to correct a reference to the Dennis Brain/Peter Pears recording of the Britten Serenade, as it was the Tuckwell/Pears that was in fact played (so he must have been listening with more than half an ear). I don't recall his music having been featured on Breakfast this morning, so your pretty wild speculation about a tip off appears to be baseless. 'Ms Klein' (why do you style her thus after so matily referring to Ollie?) doesn't present Breakfast, so I don't understand your reference to her. Your 7 Last Words are just the usual lazy cliched pap that I've come to expect.

Erm ... this is the "Essential Classics" Thread, uct.

[underthecountertenor]

Erm ... this is the "Essential Classics" Thread, uct.

Erm, yes, but I made a brief reference to OK's appearance on Breakfast in the context of my argument re the EC demographic. And it was not only express but also quoted by the chap who then started talking about OK and SK.

[LMcD]

Erm, yes, but I made a brief reference to OK's appearance on Breakfast in the context of my argument re the EC demographic. And it was not only express but also quoted by the chap who then started talking about OK and SK.

Don't forget NK (that's the violinist, not the former Soviet leader). Then there's CK (the fashion guru) and FK (the violinist). Not forgetting MK (concrete cows) Oh, and there's JK (who became JO)
OK?

[vinteuil]

OK?

Otto Klemperer?


.

[french frank]

Does that figure include only those who listen to the programme or also those who have given up on it? If the former, I'm not sure what you can deduce from that since only complete morons are likely to carry on listening to shows they don't like, aren't they?

Exactement. Wikipedia has a page all about AI, and summarises: "One criticism of the more general value of AI scores is that audiences tend to watch those shows they like, or expect to like, and so will tend to score them well." Some precise questions seem to preclude responses from anyone who didn't listen, because they think it's awful, from scoring the programme. If you have access to the general figures for stations (programme figures are not available), it's clear that most figures are up around the 80 mark.

I did quite a bit of background research on the system as the BBC agency used it and concluded that it didn't, at that time, meet very rigorous standards. For example, if you ask respondents to score anything on a 1-10 scale, you are supposed to give some idea of what each figure stands for (which was not indicated). What exactly do people understand by 'high quality' - other than that they enjoyed it? This is a very, very blunt instrument which the BBC likes because it gives them very good results. So trying to argue against it is useless. It carries a lot of weight with the BBC.

As a matter of interest, do you know what the old average audience ratings were for CD Masters? Personal recollection is that there was probably little to choose in absolute numbers which suggests that large segments of the audience would listen whatever was served up.

Another point about BBC figures is that they keep moving the goal posts so issues that you want to compare one with the other are never quite comparable. I do know that CD Masters got a weekly average audience of comfortably over 600,000. Essential Classics has over 800,00 but the figures aren't comparable because:

a) CD Masters was only two hours long and EC is three hours, longer for people to dip in and out: dippers in don't have to listen for very long to be counted as One Full Listener.

b) CD Masters didn't begin until 10am and EC begins at 9am which is reckoned a 'peak' junction, catching listeners before they begin to switch stations or switch off. Hence it was part of EC's brief to keep hold of the Breakfast listeners - another example of the audience driving the content, rather than Radio 3 just deciding what it would do.

[LMcD]

Otto Klemperer?


.

Okko Kamu, actually.

[underthecountertenor]

Okko Kamu, actually.

Oliver Knussen, actually. Did you bother to scroll back even two messages to check the context? (Classic FM attention span?) Or is this just classic FoR3 forum distraction technique? Despite your emoticon, coming up with other people with the initials OK really isn't funny (though it is perhaps laughable).

[french frank]

Perhaps all jokes and emoticons should be be banned here since one never knows who one is irritating?

Oliver Knussen, actually. Did you bother to scroll back even two messages to check the context? (Classic FM attention span?) Or is this just classic FoR3 forum distraction technique? Despite your emoticon, coming up with other people with the initials OK really isn't funny (though it is perhaps laughable).