Is Chronological Order Too Much To Ask For?

[Bryn]

Yes, and I fear that you don't get either Zaslaw's or Webster's excellent notes for the budget boxes of the respective Mozart and Haydn cycles - at last one advantage for those of us who stumped up full price for each individual release all those years ago!

The Webster pdf is still available.

[doversoul1]

Thanks BBmK2.....

I tend to focus on one or two composers for some time, and the first thing I look for is a chronology, along with a more detailed look at how their style developed. It doesn't need to take long!

My latest obsession is with Bruno Maderna's orchestral music, and really, you could be quite lost if you didn't find out what he had written, why and when. The same absolutely applies to Enescu, or even more so, recently acclaimed for his Octet here.
Your understanding and ergo your enjoyment of the music is thus intensified. I would say this applies to most oeuvres, including the Mozart and Mendelssohn Symphonies. Would anyone suggest that knowledge of the order/history of composition of Mahler's or Bruckner's Symphonies is merely academic?
Surely not - it feeds into both enjoyment and understanding. The Life and the Work cross-fertilise in the heart and the mind...

Of course you don't have to look into these things to enjoy your listening; why else would Classic FM be so popular? But I don't know, time was when this forum would take such serious listening for granted. It seems strange to have to argue a case for it now, here....

Do I understand that you are saying only ‘serious’ way of listening to music is the way you do it and the rest are Classical FM stuff? There are plenty of discussions, serious and informed, going on on this forum but as they are rarely presented in your style, maybe you don’t recognise them.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks BBmK2.....

I tend to focus on one or two composers for some time, and the first thing I look for is a chronology, along with a more detailed look at how their style developed. It doesn't need to take long!

My latest obsession is with Bruno Maderna's orchestral music, and really, you could be quite lost if you didn't find out what he had written, why and when. The same absolutely applies to Enescu, or even more so, recently acclaimed for his Octet here.
Your understanding and ergo your enjoyment of the music is thus intensified. I would say this applies to most oeuvres, including the Mozart and Mendelssohn Symphonies. Would anyone suggest that knowledge of the order/history of composition of Mahler's or Bruckner's Symphonies is merely academic?
Surely not - it feeds into both enjoyment and understanding. The Life and the Work cross-fertilise in the heart and the mind...

Of course you don't have to look into these things to enjoy your listening; why else would Classic FM be so popular? But I don't know, time was when this forum would take such serious listening for granted. It seems strange to have to argue a case for it now, here....

I couldn't emphasise my agreement more strongly!

I find Ferney's point more relevant the further back in historical time one goes, because it comes down to a matter of self-identification: with Mahler, not too difficult; with Beethoven, rather more so; in the case of Dunstable, virtually impossible: I could not fathom for one instant what motivated Dunstable to compose in the spirit that he did, because the context of his awareness and self-awareness and the issues connected with both were quite different from mine. I think one has to face the fact that projection supersedes identification in approaching far distant cultures from our own.

[Serial_Apologist]

Do I understand that you are saying only ‘serious’ way of listening to music is the way you do it and the rest are Classical FM stuff? There are plenty of discussions, serious and informed, going on on this forum but as they are rarely presented in your style, maybe you don’t recognise them.

I can only speak for myself, of course, but when it comes to another's enthusiasm for certain causes (including musical appreciations) jayne's for Bruckner, for example, have given me cause to rethink my own. It's when people seem to be ramming their opinions down other's throats that enthusiasm can be wearing or offputting - and I would never accuse jayne of doing that!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So, to clarify, S_A: are you agreeing with Bbm's statement that "it's absolutely essential that people understand totally what any composer has written chronologically"? That, even with Mahler, it's "absolutely essential" that listeners "understand totally" when a composition was written in his output?

If so, I really find that an extraordinary requirement, which - perhaps - confuses what is "helpful" to know with what is "essential".

[MrGongGong]

So, to clarify, S_A: are you agreeing with Bbm's statement that "it's absolutely essential that people understand totally what any composer has written chronologically"? That, even with Mahler, it's "absolutely essential" that listeners "understand totally" when a composition was written in his output?

If so, I really find that an extraordinary requirement, which - perhaps - confuses what is "helpful" to know with what is "essential".

Blimey

That's one way of thinking, I guess

[Serial_Apologist]

So, to clarify, S_A: are you agreeing with Bbm's statement that "it's absolutely essential that people understand totally what any composer has written chronologically"? That, even with Mahler, it's "absolutely essential" that listeners "understand totally" when a composition was written in his output?

If so, I really find that an extraordinary requirement, which - perhaps - confuses what is "helpful" to know with what is "essential".

Yes indeed, it would be an extraordinary requirement, especially for music composed in cultures far distanced from ours in which such desiderata would not have counted for much in terms of appreciation. With Mahler we can identify, I think, because we still share the miseries bestowed by capitalism - insecurity, unrealistic unsutainable expectations, social hierarchisation, the divide between rich and poor, exploitation of the "natural order" he so loved as if it were a slave, antisemitism, nationalism, war and militarism - all theorised into a generalised fatalism regarding suffering as part of the "human condition" that is probably as common a viewpoint today as in his time. You start life in an innocence to be corrupted by kicking against the pricks and being kicked by them, and there is a traceable trail of concomitance to follow in how the art developed in the light of insights gained along the path.

[jayne lee wilson]

Do I understand that you are saying only ‘serious’ way of listening to music is the way you do it and the rest are Classical FM stuff? There are plenty of discussions, serious and informed, going on on this forum but as they are rarely presented in your style, maybe you don’t recognise them.

Of course I'm not bloody saying that....

But it's time for you to tell us YOUR ideas about "serious listening" ds - and why it wouldn't include an awareness of a composer's life and stylistic development, as accessed through even the most basic chronology, as a part of it....
"The way I listen to it" is the way that Gramophone magazine and Radio 3 instructed me in back in the 1970s, that you could never know too much, that delving into the music and its background is a labour of love....

I try to contribute here from my own personal knowledge and deep love of the classical repertoire, to offer what insights I can into the music itself and the recorded catalogue, especially in rarer repertoire. My "style" is as personal as anyone's - take it or leave it. But since what I can offer now seems of less value on this forum than it was just a few years ago, it maybe time for to me to take my leave. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't miss it.

Would you like that, doversoul? Just say the word and I'll go....

Anyway, time to concentrate on the Champions League for the rest of the evening...the Reds aren't doing too well, but Inter v Barca should cheer me up....

[LeMartinPecheur]

Would you like that, doversoul? Just say the word and I'll go....

jlw: I hope and expect that doversoul won't say the word, but if he does, please ignore him!

[doversoul1]

Of course I'm not bloody saying that....

But it's time for you to tell us YOUR ideas about "serious listening" ds - and why it wouldn't include an awareness of a composer's life and stylistic development, as accessed through even the most basic chronology, as a part of it....
"The way I listen to it" is the way that Gramophone magazine and Radio 3 instructed me in back in the 1970s, that you could never know too much, that delving into the music and its background is a labour of love....

I try to contribute here from my own personal knowledge and deep love of the classical repertoire, to offer what insights I can into the music itself and the recorded catalogue, especially in rarer repertoire. My "style" is as personal as anyone's - take it or leave it. But since what I can offer now seems of less value on this forum than it was just a few years ago, it maybe time for to me to take my leave. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't miss it.

Would you like that, doversoul? Just say the word and I'll go....

Anyway, time to concentrate on the Champions League for the rest of the evening...the Reds aren't doing too well, but Inter v Barca should cheer me up....

I post mostly to draw attention to the programme or the music and have no inclination to bare my soul about how I listen and respond to what I hear. You are perfectly entitle to post what you like in anyway you like but I don’t think insisting that your way is the way is not quite civil. Whether you want to leave or stay on the forum is entirely up to you although I am terribly flattered to be asked for an opinion.

Let’s get back to the topic. I for one, am perfectly happy to listen to music without always having to know which or what came first etc.,

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course I'm not bloody saying that....

But it's time for you to tell us YOUR ideas about "serious listening" ds - and why it wouldn't include an awareness of a composer's life and stylistic development, as accessed through even the most basic chronology, as a part of it....
"The way I listen to it" is the way that Gramophone magazine and Radio 3 instructed me in back in the 1970s, that you could never know too much, that delving into the music and its background is a labour of love....

I try to contribute here from my own personal knowledge and deep love of the classical repertoire, to offer what insights I can into the music itself and the recorded catalogue, especially in rarer repertoire. My "style" is as personal as anyone's - take it or leave it. But since what I can offer now seems of less value on this forum than it was just a few years ago, it maybe time for to me to take my leave. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't miss it.

Would you like that, doversoul? Just say the word and I'll go....

Anyway, time to concentrate on the Champions League for the rest of the evening...the Reds aren't doing too well, but Inter v Barca should cheer me up....

Along with LMP I for one would much miss your passion and conviction when writing about music you love, JLW; so please don't leave. Your remarks about... football, are another matter entirely...

[Dave2002]

Of course I'm not bloody saying that....

But it's time for you to tell us YOUR ideas about "serious listening" ds - and why it wouldn't include an awareness of a composer's life and stylistic development, as accessed through even the most basic chronology, as a part of it....
"The way I listen to it" is the way that Gramophone magazine and Radio 3 instructed me in back in the 1970s, that you could never know too much, that delving into the music and its background is a labour of love....

I try to contribute here from my own personal knowledge and deep love of the classical repertoire, to offer what insights I can into the music itself and the recorded catalogue, especially in rarer repertoire. My "style" is as personal as anyone's - take it or leave it. But since what I can offer now seems of less value on this forum than it was just a few years ago, it maybe time for to me to take my leave. Which doesn't mean I wouldn't miss it.

Would you like that, doversoul? Just say the word and I'll go....

Anyway, time to concentrate on the Champions League for the rest of the evening...the Reds aren't doing too well, but Inter v Barca should cheer me up....

No - don't go Jayne.

I don't always read every detail of your posts, but you clearly consider what you write very carefully. I (and others) don't have to agree with you, but that's something that surely most of us can cope with. You often alert us to what's out there and to what's possible. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with all that I write (... only 99% of it )

Also, although I don't really understand how you find time to do all your listening, nor how you seem to have knowledge of such esoteric and high end equipment, I do value your contributions re sound quality - which at least makes me think about what kit I might enjoy having - if I could afford it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

With Mahler we can identify, I think, because we still share the miseries bestowed by capitalism - insecurity, unrealistic unsutainable expectations, social hierarchisation, the divide between rich and poor, exploitation of the "natural order" he so loved as if it were a slave, antisemitism, nationalism, war and militarism - all theorised into a generalised fatalism regarding suffering as part of the "human condition" that is probably as common a viewpoint today as in his time. You start life in an innocence to be corrupted by kicking against the pricks and being kicked by them, and there is a traceable trail of concomitance to follow in how the art developed in the light of insights gained along the path.

This is fascinating - and contains a great deal with which I totally concur - but I'm not sure that this is what Bbm was meaning with his comment that he believed that it is "absolutely essential that people understand totally what composers have written chronologically". As you say, "we can identify" what we hear in Mahler's Music with post-Industrial Revolution experiences - but to say that it is "essential" (for everyone) to do so demonstrates the flaw in such a "Music as Metaphor" reasoning. How many of Mahler's performers - essential elements, it can be argued, in many listeners' experience of the Music - thought in this way? And if Walter, Klemperer, Webern, Schönberg, Mengelberg, Haitink (for example) didn't think in these terms, in what sense of the word can such a interpretation be described as "essential" (to everyone)?

Would it not, perhaps, be more "essential" to an understanding of Mahler's Music (to understand the tradition in which the composer was "placing" his work; to appreciate what he changed in the way of thinking in sound, and how he reached such changes) for listeners and performers to have knowledge and experience of, for example, the contrapuntal training that Mahler learnt from Bruckner (who learnt this from Sechter, who taught Schubert ... )? Would such knowledge and experience empower listeners to identify what Mahler was "bringing to the table" - and to hear clearly for themselves what he's doing and how he's doing it, and why he's doing. With such immediate knowledge they can then relate their experience of the Music to their experience of their own and others' existence(s)?

(We've come a long way from why they don't put the Bartok S4tets 1-3 on one CD and 4-6 on another! )

[jayne lee wilson]

No - don't go Jayne.

I don't always read every detail of your posts, but you clearly consider what you write very carefully. I (and others) don't have to agree with you, but that's something that surely most of us can cope with. You often alert us to what's out there and to what's possible. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with all that I write (... only 99% of it )

Also, although I don't really understand how you find time to do all your listening, nor how you seem to have knowledge of such esoteric and high end equipment, I do value your contributions re sound quality - which at least makes me think about what kit I might enjoy having - if I could afford it.

In fact Dave, I don't listen for much longer than an hour or two a day, if that (often comparing related works/performances, Gramophone/BaL style), and not even every day either. Anything I know, strictly limited by my lack of musical training, comes from many years of listening - both closely attentive and more casual. (Classic FM is great in the kitchen).
Apart from the 1970s local record library, my Home Taping Years - broadly the 1990s - made the biggest difference; unable to afford a CD player or discs, I became obsessed with recording chamber and orchestral music off Radio 3, and discovered much new and recent music alongside repeated tapings of the core classical rep., always seeking better performances and better sound.... I just got the bug, really. I discovered Enescu's Octet that way, and much else. Remember those Barbican weekends? Birtwistle, Boulez, Henze, Janacek, Martinu.... I'd record almost every concert, borrowing library books as a guide....

So that's how it all happened... it gave my life shape and structure - a search for meaning it otherwise lacked.

The same goes for HiFi - many years of borrowing and trialling kit at all price levels, usually 2ndhand from dealers that let me return what didn't work out; alongside avid reading of HiFi News and other on- and off-line review magazines. Hearing other people's systems and thinking about them, about what was right or wrong.

(BTW - you remarked in a thread a few months back that you could probably afford an Esoteric SACD player if you wanted, which I certainly couldn't - they scarcely depreciate to affordability with "pre-ownership" either...! )

[Bryn]

. . . Remember those Barbican weekends? Birtwistle, Boulez, Henze, Janacek, Martinu.... I'd record almost every concert, borrowing library books as a guide....

Now there's 'a thing'. No, I don't remember those weekends, fond as I am of each of those composers' work. It's the Messiaen, Ives and Cage weekends which stick in my memory. Oh, and there was an Adams weekend as well, but though I recorded the broadcsasts of all four, that 'Earbox' weekend almost skipped my mind.

Come to think of it, the Messiaen was not a so much a Barbican weekend. Westminster Cathedral was also used.