Is Chronological Order Too Much To Ask For?

[Serial_Apologist]

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... I think most of the miseries Serial lists wd have been part of life for most people well before 'capitalism' - those who endured the Thirty Years War - or even the Roman civil wars - would recognize the suffering.

I would see the 'chronology' significance to take off with the Romantic movement rather than as a result of capitalism.

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In answer to your good self and to vints, I would say that both capitalism and a more trans-historical approach to trends and how an individual artist or composer's developing creativity was viewed within them, both flow, intermediated by received means of expression - instruments, how their development shaped what could be said with them, and how this in turn moulded idiom in new ways - from the same basic sources: namely, underlying psycho-physiological hardwirings of expression, and their transformation to give "authentic" expression to the kind of world they were making their "home". Elliott Carter epitomised this rather well in a radio interview I've quoted from previously, where he talked about situating his aesthetic on common terms with a whole swathe of composers of the 1930s and 40s attempting to forge a common neo-classical aesthetic, only realising, post-WW2, that the basics for such an aesthetic convergence were essentially illusory; from which point he came to realise that one only has oneself as a reliable culminating point from which to establish some basis for a perspective, and sought to give more authentic expression to his own experiences of being immersed in the complex modern world. One just has to listen to his music, post 1948, to get the implication of the aesthetic course to which he had become committed as being more in the Second Viennese School lineage than that of the American "populists" like Copland. Sessions was another*; and I happen to think Copland was probably in two minds about it in his later life.

*Dallapiccola, arguably, a third. Some might choose to add Tippett.

[MrGongGong]

CD sales are struggling at the moment, so it should all be about pleasing the listener. Making the listener do 'extra work' is not a good idea.

There's a whole pile of assumtions in that statement
about time we put those pesky string quartets in their place

[Serial_Apologist]

It's a remarkable coincidence if it doesn't. The French, American, and Industrial Revolutions were all Middle-Class affairs - emerging from the scientific discoveries of the previous centuries overthrowing established "knowledge" about how the universe was meant to be. The Enlightenment is a mid-stage - an attempt to create new types of order; Romanticism is the "natural" reaction to this, post Robespierre (and Napoleon). I don't think it could ever have "swept across all the Art forms" under the ways that the Arts and were used (and Artists trained) in pre-Capitalist Europe.

Thanks for providing part of the answer I was looking for, and as always, presenting it so intelligibly, ferney. I would go further, indicating in addition the imposition on the composer who now had to sell his or her musical product on the market that he or she should have an individual "voice" or identity distinguishing him or her from others in "the trade". Thirdly, Romanticism was - wouldn't one say? - in part a subjectivist reaction against the de-personalisation and alienation of labour under capitalist relations of production? The pre-Industrial Revolution composer or artists had less of a pretext to experience him or herself as to the same degree separated from the natural life cycles that had determined daily rhythms of life and work; religious conventions that had always spoken of a division between the human and the natural, one which put "Man" at odds with "his" own nature, seemed confirmed by what "Man" was now doing to the natural environment. The conscious artist was aware that the latter included his own "internal environment", and this was bound to rub off in creative manifestations that emphasised the "inner spirit", in contrast with earlier preoccupations with Apollonian values of balance, principles of regularity and the eventual resolving of tensions and oppositions.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... I understand all this. I suppose I don't see 'Romanticism' as at all a 'natural', inevitable result of the societal changes brought in as a result of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution. Doubtless bicoz Enlightenment types like me think the whole swerve to a Romantic approach was a disastrous wrong turn...

I think you're right to regard historical narratives as "inevitable", but I do think that there is a "logical" - as opposed to "natural" - progression from Galileo (both of 'em) to Romanticism. There were proto-Romantic features in Vasari's biographical studies - and Caravaggio had a pretty "Byronic" life. But it is, I think, significant that his "self-portraits" - as are most pre-Capitalist examples - are "in character"; a painter could only be able to create a lifelong series of self-portraits (in other words, to make himself the dubject of his life's work) in a "Middle-Class society" such as Rembrandt's Holland. I think that - without going any further into the benefits or otherwise of the Movement - it would have been surprising if Romanticism had not emerged from such beginnings, and if the products of the Industrial Revolution (including newspapers, publishing companies), had not ensured that the ideas of the Movement became quickly widespread.

[Conchis]

Every format has its day. The LP replaced the 78, which in turn was supplanted by the CD. CDs have had 30 years or so as the go to medium which is about par for the course. Downloads and (increasingly) streaming are the future of the record industry. Record company executives know this which is why they won't be killing themselves at upsetting a few cranks over the order in which tracks are listed.

Thanks very much for the unjustified insult.

I'm sure it's provided the only moderately bright spot in your sad, constipated little day.

[MrGongGong]

Every format has its day. The LP replaced the 78, which in turn was supplanted by the CD. CDs have had 30 years or so as the go to medium which is about par for the course. Downloads and (increasingly) streaming are the future of the record industry. Record company executives know this which is why they won't be killing themselves at upsetting a few cranks over the order in which tracks are listed.

aaah
I think you make the mistake of thinking that history is a process of "improvement"
the reality is that formats change but (Importantly !) DON'T "replace" each other.
I've got an album coming out sometime next year that will be a cassette release by a label that does downloads, CD's & Cassette releases as well as the occaisional LP.

"Cranks" embrace your crankyness my friend

[Serial_Apologist]

aaah
I think you make the mistake of thinking that history is a process of "improvement"

The modern human brain is surely an "improvement" on the Cro-Magnon, though, wouldn't one say? I.e. evolution as a tendency towards "improvement" in the name of survival? The only trouble is all the ruling classes that continually get in the way of progress, holding things up.

I only say this because I once heard a critic lambast the modernist idea of progress as a 20th century illusion. Monteverdi, Bach and Beethoven, he argued, had not concerned themselves over whether or not their music represented some form of progress over what had been before. To which I would argue that, nevertheless, their music did mark steps of progress, which successors have built upon. Only in our postmodernist time have we given up on progress, because, imv, capitalism as a system and those benefitting themselves the most from it have run out of options to benefit everyone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... the imposition on the composer who now had to sell his or her musical product on the market that he or she should have an individual "voice" or identity distinguishing him or her from others in "the trade".

Romanticism was ... in part a subjectivist reaction against the de-personalisation and alienation of labour under capitalist relations of production?

"In part", yes (beginning with Rosseau, perhaps and manifesting itself in this country in such works as the urban poetry of Blake, and the rural poetry of Clare) - but there were other Romantics who were thrilled by the power of industrial machinery, and saw it as a triumph of and for humanity: Turner was one such, and it culminates in such late Romantic trends as the Futurists and Vorticists - significantly just before the First World War.

And there is also that double-handed attitude that many Artists had about Capitalism - demonstrated not least by Mahler, who could join worker's street demonstrations, whilst treating orchestral Musicians like factory fodder. (And Wagner's regarding Bayreuth as an "anarchist" institution - in which everyone was working together as equals in doing everything exactly as he wanted them to do!)

[Conchis]

Although orchestral/opera listeners don't seem to have bought into the 'vinyl revival' (and I can't say I blame them), who would have guessed that vinyl would make the comeback its currently enjoying?

The 'death of the CD' has been confidently predicted since (at least) 1995, yet it's still here.

[Dave2002]

Although orchestral/opera listeners don't seem to have bought into the 'vinyl revival' (and I can't say I blame them), who would have guessed that vinyl would make the comeback its currently enjoying?

The 'death of the CD' has been confidently predicted since (at least) 1995, yet it's still here.

And now we see TV adverts with people putting on vinyl records, and lowering a pickup onto the tracks ...... Progress!!!!

I realy can hardly believe that this is happening - vinyl can sound good on good kit, but on the cheap things which now seem to be sold even in supermarkets it surely has to be a hopeless way to distribute audio. Who are the people who buy this stuff? Don't they know it's rubbish and will sound as such?

[verismissimo]

I recently acquired the 'Warner' 9CD box of Elgar's electrical recordings. For a while, I struggled. Should I listen to it in the order of composition? Or should I listen to it using the order he recorded works? Which would be more 'chronological'?

In the end, I made a cup of tea and listened to it in the order presented on the CDs, reading in parallel the notes with the earlier LP issues (including J Northrop Moore's book on the recordings).

Quite complicated enough, and most enlightening and enjoyable.

[Sir Velo]

Although orchestral/opera listeners don't seem to have bought into the 'vinyl revival' (and I can't say I blame them), who would have guessed that vinyl would make the comeback its currently enjoying?

The 'death of the CD' has been confidently predicted since (at least) 1995, yet it's still here.

Vinyl, in certain circumstances, can provide superior audio quality over the CD. CDs are limited in this respect by the format despite all the hype which surrounded its launch. Hi-res can only be afforded by SACDs, downloads or streaming formats. Side breaks are also a thing of the past. Thanks to Qobuz I can listen to the entire Haydn (never mind Bartok) quartet oeuvre in order without leaving my chair!

[verismissimo]

Every format has its day. The LP replaced the 78, which in turn was supplanted by the CD. CDs have had 30 years or so as the go to medium which is about par for the course. Downloads and (increasingly) streaming are the future of the record industry. Record company executives know this which is why they won't be killing themselves at upsetting a few cranks over the order in which tracks are listed.

Just to expand on Sir V's thesis:

c. 1870 Edison and cylinders
c. 1900 Berliners flat discs, acoustic recording, scale manufacturing of '78s'
c. 1925 Electrical recording using microphone, continuance of 78s.
c. 1955 LPs at 33rpm and EPs at 45
c. 1980 CDs
c. 2005 Downloading/streaming
c. 2030 ????????

[Bryn]

Vinyl, in certain circumstances, can provide superior audio quality over the CD. CDs are limited in this respect by the format despite all the hype which surrounded its launch. Hi-res can only be afforded by SACDs, downloads or streaming formats. Side breaks are also a thing of the past. Thanks to Qobuz I can listen to the entire Haydn (never mind Bartok) quartet oeuvre in order without leaving my chair!

Especially for longer works such as operas, late Feldman etc., I am a little surprised that the DVD medium did not take off to a greater degree for audio. The DVD Audio specification provided very high audio quality and 48/24 LPCM 2-channel audio using the DVD Video specification provides long playing times and high quality audio. A good decade or so I got myself a licenced copy of Audio DVD Creator. That has proved invaluable, both for long works and high resolution recordings I have made for my own use. The Mode recording of Fledman's SQ2 (Flux Quartet) on 48/24 stereo audio DVD is a boon, but I understand even that recording has sold better in its 6 CD format. Most recently there is the issue of the same work exclusively on 12 vinyl LPs. For a continuous work, this strike me as quite ridiculous, especially as I understand the original recording was digital. I hope Blu-ray takes hold rather better than audio DVD has, but I have my doubts. How many here, for instance, link a DVD, let alone a Blu-ray player, to their HiFi system?

[Bryn]

Just to expand on Sir V's thesis:

c. 1870 Edison and cylinders
c. 1900 Berliners flat discs, acoustic recording, scale manufacturing of '78s'
c. 1925 Electrical recording using microphone, continuance of 78s.
c. 1955 LPs at 33rpm and EPs at 45
c. 1980 CDs
c. 2005 Downloading/streaming
c. 2030 ????????

With hard disc space costing less the 5p per GB these days, even recordable DVD or Blu-ray is being challenged regarding cost. Flash memory sticks can work out at less than 15p per GB, too. That's not quite as competitive on price, but how much more convenient in terms of size and energy usage.