Idiosyncratic Hi-Fi experiences

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  • Ariosto
    • Dec 2024

    Idiosyncratic Hi-Fi experiences

    I'm sure I will get into trouble about this, but this experience (which others may have had as well) makes me sometimes think that there is a lot of impressionistic values concerning some somewhat esoteric Hi-Fi equipment, and this is usually quite expensive as well.

    OK, going back about 7 years, I purchased an expensive (by my standards) CD player by a well known company in Cambridge. (Begins with A). It cost £400 then in about 2006/7 and I plugged it in and we used the machine, which seemed OK. (It featured upsampling and all that stuff).

    Just before 2 years later it started to miss tracks or parts of tracks. I looked into it and was advised to get a lens cleaner (re the lazer). Did this, and nothing changed. It got worse and stopped working altogether. I contacted the company and they said it was the laser which had probably failed and it would cost about £150 to repair! I pointed out that the 2 year guarantee had only just expired about two weeks earlier, but oh no, they weren't interested.

    This isn't actually the moral of the story! Because I was angry and did not want to spend another £150 plus I decided to get the cheapest CD player around. This player went for £39 at Richer Sounds and I bought it, telling my wife that it wouldn't sound as good, but it would have to do. (Made in Scandinavia)

    Imagine our surprise when I plugged it in and put on one of our well used CD's. It sounded no different! Identical sound! My wife (also a professional musician) was amazed and I felt like an idiot for spending £400 on a piece of rubbish that only worked for two years. The present CD player is the same £39 job, and still works fine, some 7+ years later.

    So the point of this story is to say that a lot of equipment sounds the same, even if the price may be ten times more.

    However, I would say that speakers are in a different category, and within reason they can cost more and sound better, or in any case, different. I would also say that recording equipment, mics, recorders, etc., should be of good quality, although even these are getting to be excellent at cheaper prices. In fact one can own a recording set up now that costs a fraction of the equipment used in Abbey Road 20 years ago, and it's possibly better! Even computer editing suites that used to cost an arm and a leg can be bought now for peanuts.
  • Thropplenoggin
    Full Member
    • Mar 2013
    • 1587

    #2
    Okay, I'll bite.

    I take it you mean the Cambridge Audio Azur 650C or some such. I can't comment on its sound quality but all this stuff is made in Asia these days, except Naim and a few other British manufactuers. Others manufacture abroad and do the Quality Control in the UK (Exposure). Things aren't built to last anymore...in-built obsolescence, but some manufacturers have excellent guarantees (Arcam - 5 years) so it pays to shop around.

    As for sound quality vs cost, you may want to look up psychoacoustics. Like the placebo effect, we know humans are influenced by suggestion in this way. Does this mean we should discount it and rely solely on double-blind tests?

    I'm about to procure a new hi-fi system and my head is dizzy with magazine reviews/forum advice/etc. Too much choice, I guess. I hope the usual hi-fi boffins engage with this thread, as I'd be interested in there thoughts about what is key: source/amp/speakers/room?

    Throppers
    It loved to happen. -- Marcus Aurelius

    Comment

    • MrGongGong
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 18357

      #3
      The only thing that makes a sound is the speakers (or your bank manager shouting at you for being so feckless !)

      Comment

      • LeMartinPecheur
        Full Member
        • Apr 2007
        • 4717

        #4
        Ariosto: FWIW my experience points the other way! I had a very careful listen to 3 different models, all a tidy bit more than £400, of expensive Cyrus CD player a few years ago when my old one broke. The 'middle' one sounded vastly more detailed and coherent than the cheapest. I then tried the top one and it was even clearer, but had somehow lost cohesion, sort of 'all parts and no whole'. So I bought the middle one.

        More recently I needed a new power amplifier and went to a fairly high-end dealer who set me up 2 different ones in my price range with same pre-amp, speakers and sound sources. I'd never been in a position to see if I could hear differences between amplifiers and wasn't at all sure I would. But it quickly became clear that one made a big rich smooth sound. But the other showed much more in the way of 'tiny hairy edges' to sounds: a singer's tiny intake of breath, tiny first touches of bows on the strings before the full note sounds and the like. This one sounded like real performances in real acoustics, where the other seemed to 'Hollywood-ise' the sound. Indeed, it might have been great for AV movie sound-tracks where the whole thing has no 'reality', presence in space and time, if you know what I mean, and you don't particularly want to think of real, fallible musicians at all. (Though the finer details of actors' speech and sound effects would have suffered a tiny bit too presumably.)

        LESSONS
        1) Do your very best to listen before you buy, using for preference recordings you know well.
        2) If you can't hear any improvement in the expensive one, buy the cheap one!
        I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

        Comment

        • Thropplenoggin
          Full Member
          • Mar 2013
          • 1587

          #5
          A few more queries (sorry to hijack your thread, Ariosto!)

          1. One review I read said that turning off the CD player's display improved the sound:

          Be sure to fiddle with the player’s sound mode. This turns off the display, the digital outputs, (or both) and improves sound quality. There’s no stark contrast – unlike an old school bass boost – but listen for longer and you’ll notice a more spacious, more subtle sound with both set to ‘off’.

          How can this be? Or is this a 'psychoacoustic' phenomenon?

          2. If I were to buy a 'budget' CD Player and a mid-range DAC, how much would the sound improve? Would the CD Player always be hamstrung by certain features, like its laser? I read a lot about lasers 'drilling' out more info from discs and the like.
          It loved to happen. -- Marcus Aurelius

          Comment

          • Serial_Apologist
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 37812

            #6
            Slightly incidental to this discussion, but if anyone starts having trouble with CDs sticking in and jumping tracks, or refusing to play at all, having checked as to possible damage to the CD, open up the works (obviously having first unplugged), locate the laser "eye", and clean with a cotton bud dipped in meths. If the problem still persists, a quick squirt of connector fluid around the seat of the revolving "table", making absolutely sure not to splash other parts of the mechanism, should do the job - as I found out recently following some 15 years of tolerating such problems on a machine I bought 20 years ago for about £38 in Rumbelows.

            Comment

            • Beef Oven!
              Ex-member
              • Sep 2013
              • 18147

              #7
              Down the years I've followed the reverse-precedent theory, much to the chagrin of my audiophile friends (one even buying me a Naim CD player in an attempt to convert me).

              If you are lucky enough to have avoided Hi-Fi jargon, the reverse of the precedent theory is to chuck as much money as you can at your speakers and everything else will be alright.

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #8
                Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                Slightly incidental to this discussion, but if anyone starts having trouble with CDs sticking in and jumping tracks, or refusing to play at all, having checked as to possible damage to the CD, open up the works (obviously having first unplugged), locate the laser "eye", and clean with a cotton bud dipped in meths. If the problem still persists, a quick squirt of connector fluid around the seat of the revolving "table", making absolutely sure not to splash other parts of the mechanism, should do the job - as I found out recently following some 15 years of tolerating such problems on a machine I bought 20 years ago for about £38 in Rumbelows.
                NOT METHS
                Leaves a residue

                Isopropyl alcohol is what you need (as used on the B77 !)

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37812

                  #9
                  Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                  NOT METHS
                  Leaves a residue

                  Isopropyl alcohol is what you need (as used on the B77 !)
                  Aha - meths seems to have done the job pro tem, but advice gladly taken.

                  Comment

                  • MrGongGong
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 18357

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                    Aha - meths seems to have done the job pro tem, but advice gladly taken.
                    Meths is fine for a few times BUT after a while it will build up a residue due to the additives etc
                    Not sure if you can still buy isopropyl alcohol over the counter though ?

                    Comment

                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 37812

                      #11
                      Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                      Meths is fine for a few times BUT after a while it will build up a residue due to the additives etc
                      Not sure if you can still buy isopropyl alcohol over the counter though ?


                      You probably could at one of our two local hardware shops - much less lethal than their amazing brand of sink unblocker called "Melt" I would have thought?

                      I might ask.
                      Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 26-04-14, 16:23.

                      Comment

                      • Ariosto

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
                        Okay, I'll bite.

                        I take it you mean the Cambridge Audio Azur 650C or some such. I can't comment on its sound quality but all this stuff is made in Asia these days, except Naim and a few other British manufactuers. Others manufacture abroad and do the Quality Control in the UK (Exposure). Things aren't built to last anymore...in-built obsolescence, but some manufacturers have excellent guarantees (Arcam - 5 years) so it pays to shop around.

                        As for sound quality vs cost, you may want to look up psychoacoustics. Like the placebo effect, we know humans are influenced by suggestion in this way. Does this mean we should discount it and rely solely on double-blind tests?

                        I'm about to procure a new hi-fi system and my head is dizzy with magazine reviews/forum advice/etc. Too much choice, I guess. I hope the usual hi-fi boffins engage with this thread, as I'd be interested in there thoughts about what is key: source/amp/speakers/room?

                        Throppers
                        It was Arcam and it only had a two year guarantee back then. I still think we are influenced by psychoacoustics, reviewers, magazines etc.

                        Comment

                        • Ariosto

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
                          A few more queries (sorry to hijack your thread, Ariosto!)

                          1. One review I read said that turning off the CD player's display improved the sound:

                          Be sure to fiddle with the player’s sound mode. This turns off the display, the digital outputs, (or both) and improves sound quality. There’s no stark contrast – unlike an old school bass boost – but listen for longer and you’ll notice a more spacious, more subtle sound with both set to ‘off’.

                          How can this be? Or is this a 'psychoacoustic' phenomenon?

                          2. If I were to buy a 'budget' CD Player and a mid-range DAC, how much would the sound improve? Would the CD Player always be hamstrung by certain features, like its laser? I read a lot about lasers 'drilling' out more info from discs and the like.
                          I did turn off the display but it made no difference. I think this is the manufacturers auto suggestions. I'm told by experts that the DAC often makes no difference these days, but then some say sometimes a small difference, but personally I'm not sure.

                          Comment

                          • Ariosto

                            #14
                            In my humble experience over many years I have found that the speakers make the most difference and the amp the least. However, a good source in the days of tape (reel to reel) was important and that's why I did spend a bit on Ferrograph and Revox decks. I particularly noticed in those day wow and flutter, especially wow, and this phenonomen was noticeable on the cheaper decks.

                            Professional CD producers and engineers say that the most important thing is good music, good performer(s), good hall for accoustics, good mic placement - and then the mics used and pre-amp only contribute a small amount towards the results.

                            Comment

                            • Ariosto

                              #15
                              I have too been in studios where they use B&W speakers costing (then) over £10K in the recording room, and have listened to playbacks of famous players and singers and orchestral bits. I remember thinking, expensive speakers, but am I knocked out by them? These were playing directly off the digital tapes through probably expensive pre-amps and amps.

                              More recently I saw in a studio a small piece of equipment about 10 inches by 6 inches by 4 inches deep. It was a reverb. I was told it cost £60K! We didn't use it! (I like takes to be clean and any reverb etc., added later if necessary, where it can be easily undone or changed).

                              Comment

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