Music under threat in Mali

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  • handsomefortune

    #16
    the pernicious, evil influence of religions not based on love,

    all religious texts are theoretically 'based on love' (a major selling point) and all follow pretty similar guidelines as to how the common man, or woman might be a 'good' person. 'the cardinals' http://www.stanscafe.co.uk/project-cardinals.html demonstrates this perfectly imo. (useful film clips at the bottom of the link)

    but all faiths are open to peculiar departures in interpretations too imo - especially by organisations rather than individual average believers. ie from the bible 'god helps those who help themselves' can be interpreted to mean that avarice can be excused since the opportunity for personal gain was placed in front of a person ....by god. this excuses theft....or so some 'believers' imagine.

    most faiths preach that we should respect money and not be wasteful....yet this is interpreted as respect for money over and above people. 'not being wasteful' is a great cover for being a selfish penny pinching, exploitative scrooge.

    i think from (escaped) afghan people i've met and worked with here, that they make a pretty good job of interpreting their faith in a moderate and communal minded way, as evidently do the malian people - (and as described in the article zola links to). no one in their right mind wants sharia law, apart from non believers with plenty of dosh/property ime (as it means more power and punitive remedies at their disposal).

    'the taliban' preventing all manner of activities, including basics relating to health, is just a way of gaining superiority, extra power over ordinary decent folk. people whose pleasures, and identities are rooted in their spiritual commune, via music/dance/etc. (from a western perspective, surely there are some obvious parallels with the objectives of the financial crash here, as regards our health)?

    taliban leaders, and the rich countries that supply funds etc ensure that the taliban's 'job' is to unsettle communities, so as to divide and rule. i think an apt comparison to the taliban is the italian mafia, as discussed recently on r4: people are fearful, and duped by petty thieves, their fate decided by opportunist non believers (or sinners) for personal gain....yet when caught, mafia crims may boast about doing whatever crime 'in the name of christ'.

    never do opportunists question whether christ/allah/etc might actually want them as a follower, (as brilliantly described by bill hicks in his comic sketch about people who wear the crucifix). in the uk, when steve wright murdered seven sex workers, he did so allegedly 'because god told him to' ....numerous instances provide evidence that there's a point at which a particularly anti social form of insanity doubles as a 'personal interpretation of faith'.

    i suspect malians will do as afghan people have had to, (apart from when afghanistan was more progressive, or was communist ) and play 'illegal' music literally 'under ground' in their cellars, at night, for fear of getting caught. it's as well to remember on days when your own music choices are filling your home, and providing oodles of pleasure to the senses, that this leisure activity isn't always open to everyone. it's a 'rich', positive thought to contemplate, especially at a time when 'wealth' is interpreted only in terms of money, and power, by both govts, and hierarchies of religious orgs alike - eastern, or western.

    musicians who escape their country, and petty opportunists of the taliban's lower ranks, with their talents, (fingers and throats), and musical instruments in tact, at least spread, and preserve culture. imo those who dare to be openly political about religious oppression are surely far closer to living out overlooked aspects of religious texts, than a bunch of saudi arms funders, or corrupt 'religious' obsessives at the top of some treacherous 'religious' regime. as zola's article proudly boasts, malians have won just about every global music award there is to win - so they have a positive head start in this sense. it's good to see malian arts attracting media attention due to current threats.... the world should know! long may it continue...though afghan musicians aren't as fortunate in this sense, barely having a profile..... other than the one provided by zealots, oppressors, opium dealers, and, of course, civilian deaths following western interventions. the fact that muzwell hill r3 listeners remain less aware of afghan music speaks volumes imo. though it suits baroness warsi etc who needs to keep her flock separate, in order to maintain her own power over their interpretation of islam. in this sense, religious moderation, and spiritual pleasure remain a threat - as is a rounded education, about others. the latter cuts both ways in a global context, which is presumably why the article about mali was written, printed and (finally) posted by zola.
    Last edited by Guest; 25-10-12, 14:48.

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    • handsomefortune

      #17
      Originally posted by gingerjon View Post
      artificial division alert - reach for the bleach gingerjon!
      Last edited by Guest; 25-10-12, 14:21.

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      • Pabmusic
        Full Member
        • May 2011
        • 5537

        #18
        Originally posted by Simon View Post
        I'm giving you the credit for having read more deeply around these subjects that some others on here, though I may be wrong.

        If you have, you will know that some religions - certainly Christianity - are not at all based on "faith alone", though for some people I think that a kind of faith - by which I mean a belief that cannot be proven by our current knowledge of science - does come to play a part.

        Your first sentence, analysed, is, I'm afraid, not an argument.

        1. Christianity doesn't seek to create any division, artificial or otherwise. It asks its adherents to love one another and everyone else, and therefore cannot be accused of having a pernicious influence. That people have subverted or perverted this is no argument against it: they, ipso facto, are not Christians.

        2. It is perfectly logical to assume a general agreement about which religions might qualify. It isn't difficult, either. The ones that argue for unselfish love towards others qualify; any that argue for the murder of people with red hair, for example, or for the sacrifice of every third child, don't. Simples.

        3. Similarly with "based on love". I accept it was a woolly term, but the general meaning should be clear enough for the purposes of a general discussion.

        S-S!
        Thank you for your analysis of the ‘non-argument’ of my first sentence (actually my second; my first is a one-word sentence – ‘no’). It’s a pity, though, that you missed the point. I was not referring to Christianity, but rather to your own correction in post 6 of a sentence of mine (previous post), in which you substituted my ‘religion’ with your ‘religions not based on love’. It is you I was accusing of creating artificial divisions, something you have now repeated by dismissing those who don’t share your particular view as ‘not Christians’.

        It is unsurprising that people could assume which religions might qualify as love-based; it is hardly logical, though. I presume that you would accept both Christianity and Bhuddism in this category, although Buddhism is an interesting case, being in fact atheistic. As for Christianity and love – well, Christ does famously talk about love and gives a new commandment about it. But he also says that no-one can be his disciple who “hates not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also” [Luke 14:26]. More importantly, he makes it clear that “till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law” [Matthew 5:17-19]. He is talking about Jewish law, the laws of Moses.

        They include such love-oriented things as killing people for working (for instance, gathering firewood) on the Sabbath [Exodus 35:2]; killing your child for being stubborn and rebellious, or just for cheek [Deut. 21:18-21; Lev. 20:9]; killing for disobeying a judge or a priest [Deut. 17:12]; killing strangers who approach a sanctuary [Numbers 17:7]; killing prophets for making wrong predictions [Deut. 18:20-22]; killing anyone who claims to talk with spirits [Lev. 20-27]; killing the owner of a ox that gores someone (the ox gets killed, too) [Exodus 21:29]. The same laws also include detailed rules for punishing your slaves (you can beat them as long as they don’t die within two days – Exodus 21:21 – Paul and Timothy also include passages supporting the owning of slaves).

        There are literally hundreds more laws that Christ reiterates are still valid. They all exude the quality of love about them, and they are as much part of Christianity as of Judaism. They just are rarely taught now, so we tend to think of Christianity as ‘based on love’.

        Absolutely none of this is meant to denigrate the good works and good experiences of those people who have very positive, ‘loving’ religious experiences. But there is also more than plenty enough for fanatics to latch onto – more representative of the whole religion, usually - and this from Christianity, not from Islam, which is the origin of Mali’s troubles.

        I post all this to underline my original point that we set artificial boundaries – we choose certain parts of religion and ignore other parts. It’s a human construct that varies from person to person, church to church, and it relies on 'faith' - you must accept that a particular variant is all true, or you are not (quite literally) a 'true' believer. There are believed to be more than 20,000 Christian denominations worldwide, each believing itself to be the true religion. (Islam has at least 150 sects.)

        And it is on such flimsy bases as these that we destroy lives and cultures in the name of religion.
        Last edited by Pabmusic; 25-10-12, 15:10. Reason: Emphasis

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        • MrGongGong
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 18357

          #19
          Originally posted by Simon View Post
          Christianity doesn't seek to create any division, artificial or otherwise. It asks its adherents to love one another and everyone else, and therefore cannot be accused of having a pernicious influence. That people have subverted or perverted this is no argument against it: they, ipso facto, are not Christians.
          !
          So that includes more or less ALL CHristians (apart from the ones whom you would term "lefty pacifists" )
          I don't see many Jainsits in the army do you ? now I wonder why ?

          The situation in Mali is very worrying indeed

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          • eighthobstruction
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 6454

            #20
            Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post

            The situation in Mali is very worrying indeed
            Yes indeed, as usual 'the great one', and his impertinent supercilious ways, take the thread off topic, and into his self indulgent territory....
            bong ching

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            • amateur51

              #21
              Originally posted by Simon View Post
              Yes, a big mistake. Yours. Unsurprisingly.

              Because, if you really think that there is no rationality behind all religions - in particular, as examples, Buddhism and Christianity - then you clearly have little or no true understanding of either.

              But then, "Amateur51" and "little or no true understanding" seem somehow to link particularly well, don't they?
              Care to explain the rationality then, Simon?

              Or is this to be yet another generalised and scornful contribution that the Prof launches and then declines to back up?

              There's a quite a few in the queue already
              Last edited by Guest; 25-10-12, 15:42. Reason: trypo

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              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #22
                Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post
                Yes indeed, as usual 'the great one', and his impertinent supercilious ways, take the thread off topic, and into his self indulgent territory....
                I'm surprised he even regards it as "real" music

                I have a good friend from Iran who used to run a music school there but sadly the situation became impossible. I also remember from the ethnomusicology that I studied that Persian Classical music is almost all intimate chamber music due to the fact that in it's history music has frequently been banned so that music would have to carry on behind closed doors.
                Some interesting things here

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                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37919

                  #23
                  Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                  I'm surprised he even regards it as "real" music

                  I have a good friend from Iran who used to run a music school there but sadly the situation became impossible. I also remember from the ethnomusicology that I studied that Persian Classical music is almost all intimate chamber music due to the fact that in it's history music has frequently been banned so that music would have to carry on behind closed doors.
                  Some interesting things here

                  http://www.freemuse.org/sw23195.asp
                  Fascinating, GG

                  Comment

                  • handsomefortune

                    #24
                    Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                    I'm surprised he even regards it as "real" music

                    I have a good friend from Iran who used to run a music school there but sadly the situation became impossible. I also remember from the ethnomusicology that I studied that Persian Classical music is almost all intimate chamber music due to the fact that in it's history music has frequently been banned so that music would have to carry on behind closed doors.
                    Some interesting things here

                    http://www.freemuse.org/sw23195.asp
                    a useful example mr gong gong! (also illustrated by that r3 mini series 'the history of persia', according to iranians)...i wont call em 'persians' as it's supposed to be a bit 'snobby', according to current iranian stand up comedy as presented by iranian escapees to the US.

                    iirc at one time people who lived in iran (and elsewhere) worshiped the sun...until islamic leaders decided it'd be better (for them) for the people not to. at one time we used to be paegan, until someone decided it'd be better that we joined the cofe, and god said 'i help those who help themselves' ...so everyone did, and there was a massive scrap ..... or 20, 000 +.

                    There are believed to be more than 20,000 Christian denominations worldwide, each believing itself to be the true religion. (Islam has at least 150 sects.)

                    And it is on such flimsy bases as these that we destroy lives and cultures in the name of religion.


                    Comment

                    • amateur51

                      #25
                      Originally posted by handsomefortune View Post
                      a useful example mr gong gong! (also illustrated by that r3 mini series 'the history of persia', according to iranians)...i wont call em 'persians' as it's supposed to be a bit 'snobby', according to current iranian stand up comedy as presented by iranian escapees to the US.

                      iirc at one time people who lived in iran (and elsewhere) worshiped the sun...until islamic leaders decided it'd be better (for them) for the people not to. at one time we used to be paegan, until someone decided it'd be better that we joined the cofe, and god said 'i help those who help themselves' ...so everyone did, and there was a massive scrap ..... or 20, 000 +.

                      There are believed to be more than 20,000 Christian denominations worldwide, each believing itself to be the true religion. (Islam has at least 150 sects.)

                      And it is on such flimsy bases as these that we destroy lives and cultures in the name of religion.


                      Truly depressing

                      Comment

                      • johncorrigan
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 10447

                        #26
                        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                        I'm surprised he even regards it as "real" music

                        I have a good friend from Iran who used to run a music school there but sadly the situation became impossible. I also remember from the ethnomusicology that I studied that Persian Classical music is almost all intimate chamber music due to the fact that in it's history music has frequently been banned so that music would have to carry on behind closed doors.
                        Some interesting things here

                        http://www.freemuse.org/sw23195.asp
                        Thanks for that MrGG....also a reminder that there were a few visits to Iran way back when by Andy and the Wo3 crew, and this was a very fine example.

                        Comment

                        • handsomefortune

                          #27
                          Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                          Truly depressing
                          yes.

                          (why not cheer yourself up exploring stan's cafe link, actually perhaps ignore, (as it's been updated with french news), though that'll presumably suit quite a few posters)?
                          Last edited by Guest; 25-10-12, 18:18.

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                          • teamsaint
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 25238

                            #28
                            This story, if not the infighting above, deserves to be on Platform 3.

                            what a terrible situation.
                            I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                            I am not a number, I am a free man.

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                            • handsomefortune

                              #29
                              Originally posted by johncorrigan View Post
                              thanks very much jc for the andy kershaw exploration ..... agreed, a superb programme!

                              Comment

                              • eighthobstruction
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 6454

                                #30
                                yep great stuff....
                                bong ching

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