Originally posted by Paul Sherratt
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It's an art form, the cucmber sandwich...
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Yearning to slap them between some thin slices of Mothers Pride finest, crust cut off and a gently steaming cup of E. Grey?
It's an art form, the cucmber sandwich...
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Lily Van der Stokker ?Comment
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apologies all, have to write 'a long un' as a devout fan.
this is breathtaking hypocrisy and self-serving bogus sentimentality.Originally posted by Globaltruth;
theAndyKershaw?ref=tn_tnmn"
which will doubtless be (mis)construed, (if EVER discussed at all), as kershaw's own 'sour grapes'. it's all so utterly predictable.
jp demonstrated a generous spirited, broad yet unique appeal. oddly enough, imv mr roger mcgough (and a few others) still work by a similar principle to jp's. r4 poetry appreciation, still regards listeners' personal experiences, requests seriously. both scousers attempt an active, participatory style of broadcasting. both strive for similar practical, functional, organic content. perhaps mc goughs' more melancholic episodes in 'poetry please' are comparable to jp's obssession with 'the fall' or 'joy division'? but mcgough seems to be vulnerable to accusations of 'old hat', and worse! or, is neatly re classified in the 'doom, gloom and too old' drawer. which suggests that perhaps peel actually 'escaped' at just the right point, or perhaps should have 'gone' sooner'? that is, if jp is to be remembered for what he was good at: faithfully building a motivated, critical listening community 60s to 90s. jp's much missed, and ever more impressive, at a time when 'interactivity' is so often merely an excuse for crappy broadcast 'solutions'. should we forget this recent change, some anxious twit will doubtless remind us of the cuts. this convenient untruth implies, that 'quality' is automatically financially 'expensive'....whereas imv both mc gough and peel demonstrate high quality, uniqueness and economy ....(and coincidentally, neither are london centric careerists, couldn't 'micro manage' their way out of a paper bag, happily).
It is also, to some extent, guilt-driven.
imv is kershaw's wishful thinking - if only!
Radio 1 was marginalising John just before his death.
but the 'compromise' began to be evident by mid 90s...and not quite as kershaw suggests, in the 2000s.
by the 90s, jp had become an indispensable audio diary, for anyone who might find it useful. jp provided : an address book & diary of live music venues, mainly outside london (bar 'the bull & gate' venue kentish town etc); as well as championing small live venues further afield, but 'do-able' on a low budget. the show provided a comprehensive list of then current live bands, as well as new/old independent record labels, and releases past and present from uk/abroad.
even at their best, jp shows were never perfect.
the general 90s obssession with vinyl (post cd/cassette) was not initially restricted to digital djs playing 12"s. jp continually championed vinyl 7" singles, particularly from 90s bands, for as long as he possibly could. vinyl is sometimes worth buying for diy sleeve designs alone ...if you could afford it. but of course, most listeners taped 'the jp show' onto cassette, paying out cash only when strictly necessary,.....it was a sort of given, that any spare cash was primarily for van, p.a. hire, petrol money etc. a forensic approach, following up jp's many tips, and useful leads was the way to go. in the
days before publication of playlists online, a biro, some scrap paper and a cassette was all you needed to 'compile your own library and events diary'....ironically! i still marvel at such supreme efficiency designed for listeners.
He was utterly demoralised by the way in which he was being treated. He told me so. So, they made his life at Radio 1 miserable in the hope that he'd sack himself. (Of course, he was too deferential to stand up to them).
jp (subtly) fought tooth and nail for his r1 show's main principles ..always extremely resourceful in this sense, and what's more, encouraged his listeners to acquire a similar grit & savvy. when the 90s landgrap began, and pubs, stages and rehearsal studios began to disappear, peel read out (with huge gusto) letters sent in by the many directly affected. after, he might play an unpronouceable foreign band, with anxious english lyrics about 'nowhere to go, just waiting for a heart attack' ...which is just a little bit precient, as well as poignant now.
essentially, peel provided a valuable sense of continuity, between the past and present .... as with beeb doc film maker, adam curtis, this approach is particularly unhelpful to ambitious compulsive liars, hoping to bust things up, for their own gain. a sense of continuity threatens current 'culture grabbers' as they stand out, like the inferior 'blood sucking freaks' they are. it's not just music that has been 'salami sliced' - different aged generations, races, cultures have also been 'dispersed'. whereas jp had provided a powerful glue, via his play lists, and unique approach, over four decades.
'they' demoralised jp, 'achieved' mainly by breaking the cultural continuity jp specifically represented: force feeding peel current major label new releases. plus hideous, digital, moronic (as in repetitive) tracks, that took up a quarter of his programme per track,.... i assume 'they' insisted that peel 'keep up with the kids'. yet the kids didn't necessarily listen to this stuff - no one was. unless they'd been eating far too many ecstasy tablets in an industrial wharehouse, or had nothing planned for the decade. by the 90s, kids had already caught the pc game bug, &/or liked r1 britpop. the next generation of genuinely alternative gig goers was a comparitively small, weedy harvest, which peel was acutely aware of, and if anything, it motivated him all the more...initially.
a shrewd trick meant that there simply wasn't much time left for jp to play innovative, digital music from the US, here, or europe anymore. though typically, jp did his very best. but at the direct expense of championing live music....jp's complete disgust was palpable imo, though he never verbalised as much. instead, he'd sound bored, tired. or left the studio, went elsewhere, while mainstream techno vinyl whirred mindlessly round his turntable. cds apparently got stuck, ...for 30 mins at a time, or so it felt. next up, the same track side B, merely a repeat of side A at a different speed ....what an utter waste! sadly, this definitive deterioration proved the beeb managements' cunning strategy was winning, despite all walters and peel's very best efforts.
astonishingly for me, by the 2000's peel was barely 'himself' on his own music show, and i gave up listening.
Cowards as well as mediocrities [I]
yes, a pairing now as familiar as 'salt and vinegar', only even cheaper! mysteriously, when peel did 'attend to his own radio show', he began fawning over very dire mainstream music, something that he never had succumbed to prior. though sometimes peel got 'badly nostalgic', which is perhaps forgiveable, if repetitive ... (as with his 'undertones' obssession) but idley fawning over the output of 'corporate whores' was not peel's usual style at all. the change stood out like a sore thumb, marking the tragic beginning of an evil force stepping up the suffocation a notch.
a career deviation as 'agony uncle' wasn't my thing at all. however, i appreciate peel's got to be better than others providing a similar function.... if anyone really prefers 'sensible advice'?.
His final words to me on the last occasion I saw him alive, and referring to his mistreatment, were, "It's killing me."
even in 'margrave of the marshes' ....which peters out, (just as his late career did), i don't understand, to this day, why peel didn't leave the beeb tbh? a move to another radio station would have been adviseable. new motivation might even have helped him keep the weight off, as combined with diabetis, it's a notorious strain on anyone's heart. i guess he must have been shocked and lonesome at john walters abrupt death too?
Now they're pulling an onion-from-pocket about John and hoping to confer upon themselves - and a part of a building, for goodness sakes - some dignity derived from his reputation and his status as a national treasure.
oh please! not 'national treasure status' for jp - just look at the over exposure of other beeb 'national treasures'!! jp's much more admirable as 'a thorn in the side of cultural conservatism', and an astute social, cultural commentator imv.
what amounts to corporate theft of everything good that jp stood for, is nevertheless predictable. but jp is just going to be someone that remains in the memories & music collections of the huge quantity of people who appreciated, or directly benefited from his approach.....over four decades.....which he would presumably thoroughly approve of, above all formalities and insincerities.
unless the new 'peel building' is full of cassette tapes made by peel show listeners! or, written accounts of their experiences of 'the jp show', or descriptions of new music found and purchased, venues/labels discovered, luxurious rebellions noted, etc due to peel, ....the building will be 'just (another) extention to 'beeb real estate', regardless of its name. sigh.
i wish jp's son the best of luck on r6, ..but wonder if a career start in pirate radio, produces 'best results' longterm? but hey, early days as yet! poor s*d, what a dad to follow, and in this age too, how 'the pig' must suffer.
jp career span - start and end, from when peel was still 'a pirate' at heart:
to the 90s, explorations of digital possibilities from....deepest stratford upon avon:
astute political commentary alert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie-Ww...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avSJz...eature=related for 'fatface' and walters. 5
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hf - Wow. I see only a slight similarity between JP and RM. I thought "Home Truths" only partially successful. I do though love the idea that "Mcgoughs' more melancholic episodes in 'poetry please' are comparable to JP's obssession with 'The Fall' or 'Joy Division'"
Your mentioning of "interactivity" raises a few doubts. Somehow I can't see that there would have been a happy JP page on the BBC website in 2012, nor would I think of him as having enthusiastically embraced Twitter. He would have felt under pressure there. Would he have stood for a weekly slot at 4am? I don't know. The public might have put pressure on him to withstand it for the sake of having him on the radio at least once a week. He might have accommodated that request.
Yes, I do agree that AK is being overly rose-tinted in believing that the BBC takes decisions based on guilt. And "Peel provided a valuable sense of continuity, between the past and present ....this approach is particularly unhelpful to ambitious compulsive liars, hoping to bust things up, for their own gain. A sense of continuity threatens current 'culture grabbers' as they stand out, like the inferior 'blood sucking freaks' they are". That is spot on.
I own a copy of "Margrave of the Marshes". A strange book. Obviously it leaves you wondering how it might have been if fully completed. Much as I very much respected JP - and AK - I have a slight uneasiness about the deification. Time moves on. I don't believe that others can't do similar. The issue is whether it would ever be permitted now. Tom Ravenscroft is doing just fine I think but there is a sense that he is not quite there yet. I hope he will be one of a number who will be sometime soon - Lat.Last edited by Guest; 08-03-12, 22:19.Comment
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I see only a slight similarity between JP and RM
well superficially, there isn't any lateralthinking1! but there's a similarity in approach is my point....and i'd add 'the johnny walker show' on r2, and also michael rossen 'word of mouth' r4 ..... can't quite put my finger on what it is exactly that unites them, as to their respective approaches as yet...... but shall mull it over. perhaps it's to do with radio intimacy, respect for listeners, and that they genuinely seem to enjoy, are stimulaed themselves by sharing listeners' requests, questions, comments etc with a certain respect and loyalty as 'standard'. perhaps they all attended the same 'radio presenter classes' .....(not that any did really), but you get my gist hopefully. perhaps they are all ex 'pirates' or started aout at that point when radio stations out at sea were capitalised upon by the old guard at the beeb, at the beginning of beebs transition to 'pop' and r1, as with peel?
"interactivity" raises a few doubts. Somehow I can't see that there would have been
nor me - jp (and possibly others listed) would probably loathe tweeting, stalker book, and the designated forms of comparitively sterile virtual communication, as currently permitted by the blood suckers.
I own a copy of "Margrave of the Marshes". A strange book i've got a copy too.... tis odd, left me sad, pessimistic, anticipating a bit more somehow....just like in IRL, when the show deteriorated. though the start of the autobiography is fabulously exhilerating. always loved the idea that the peel show came from 'peel acres' in the 90s - what a treat!
I don't believe that others can't do similar. The issue is whether it would ever be permitted now.
certainly wouldn't be permitted right now...but encouraged to think that pirate antics, triumphant rejection of professional insincerity might sometime be repeated in some form. at least i'm encouraged that you think it might even be repeatable. for starters, the network of promotors, pubs, venues etc nolonger exist .... nor the 'can do' attitudes of the many volunteer helpers, that oiled the wheels to make things happen. so the 'glue' has vanished that peel helped stick, as regards a genuinely alternative scene too probably. a new cultural scene could begin again .... but i'm not sure what public buildings would suffice for gigs, and whether the age groups will ever rejoin, and hang out together quite as easily. imagine introducing the beckham kids to ivor cutler in a few years ...posh'd probably call social services in 
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handsome fortune
"There's a similarity in approach"....There is that certainly. I ask "could I see this person as being happier on commercial radio?" If the answer is "yes", then it is probably a thumbs down. There are a couple in the commercial sector who should be on the BBC too.
"Radio presenter classes".....That is a problem with now. They have to be one of three cans of baked beans. All know where they are going and they are on the same route. When you look at the late 1960s - many fields - a phrase that comes to mind is "we never thought about what we were doing as a lifelong career".
"Pirates" - There was something about the pirates which was an extension of playing records to mates in the home. Plus of course adventure. Key word. I think they were old voices with young heads. Now it is young voices with old heads. Very business orientated though many act in a childlike manner. I prefer the former.
"Sad" - I'd been with two mates up to the Dales to do walking. On the first night, I went to the cashpoint in Ilkley and found all my money had been removed. The first day was spent going from bank to police station to bank. Ultimately I was told to check in at the police station near to my home. So we got on with the week, them lending me money, raining all the time, the worst we had ever had together. A quiet train journey back to London. And just as I was waiting to get on the last train to home, tired, not wanting to go to the police again, on the Standard board at Victoria "John Peel Dead at 65". Seemed to sum it up. Did it feel grim!
"The 90s" - I feel he did embrace dance culture a bit. Just enough. As for venues, yes, spent some nights at the Bull and Gate. Many others. Dingwalls a favourite. Vince Power lost his empire which had an impact on London. I was at what we thought would be the last ever gig at the Brixton Academy before a religious sect took it over but it was "saved". There were new restrictions on performing rights. Crucially, audiences jabbered throughout. When there is live music, uncharacteristically I don't.
"Imagine introducing the beckham kids to ivor cutler in a few years ...posh'd probably call social services in" - Excellent.
Last edited by Guest; 08-03-12, 23:45.Comment
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I now see this place is still going:
I believe Resonance fm - unfortunately only audible up to about 20 miles out of London - puts out details of venuesComment
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Resonance is available onlineOriginally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI now see this place is still going:
I believe Resonance fm - unfortunately only audible up to about 20 miles out of London - puts out details of venues
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thanks for resonance recommendation - impressive this far .... a valuable discussion regarding disabled people, and claiming esa etc and a4e, and the current problems.
and now, a monthly arts discussion, about 'participants and spectators', brechtian ideas about there being no division between the two, how very timely!
Private Moments Morgan Quaintance makes the case for imaginative engagement as a form of participation Discussion around particpatory art has missed one important category of engagement. Where is the analysis of artists – such as Manon de Boer and Marjolijn Dijkman – who purposefully cue up and then direct the individual viewer's imagination?
but which section of the resonance site is connected to the 'glue' that peel made i'm not sure, this far at least? i haven't heard anything at all relating to music specifically, (but am listening in the wrong part of the site probably).
does resonance have a 'listen again' type thingy, or just itchy ear ipod downloads perhaps?Comment
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aha - next up, a resonance programme called 'the sound projector' is music ...
(not that i didn't like the chat prior)
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"Now in its 30th year" - sounds like a good time to catch it!Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostComment
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handsome,
100% listener supported, as well as advert & sponsor-free, the mighty wfmu resonates more for me
I think it did for JP too. Particularly it's musician & dj Laura CantrellComment
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thanks very much for that paul sherrratt.... i have downloaded it but there are so many categories ...i don't know where to start.
where exactly is laura cantrell, for instance, on the site?
also, why do i have google as my homepage after downloading?
i do like the idea of advert and sponsor free mind you.Comment
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>> also, why do i have google as my homepage after downloading?
I'm sorry I haven't a clue ( Barry Cryer was also at that 100 Club gig mentioned earlier )
Laura Cantrell goes under the guise of 'The Radio Thrift Shop' and all of her shows going back years are archived.
She's not in the current schedule.
As to where to start - Give The Drummer Some - again on archive - again not on the main station but our man Doug who
is now based in Pittsburgh now curates his own stream via the station.
Doug's shows http://www.wfmu.org/Playlists/Doug/
And some of the artists featured .................................................. ..........................>>>>>>>
Last edited by Guest; 11-03-12, 20:13.Comment
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