The rise and fall and rise of the Mixtape

[Globaltruth]

As this seems to be an r3 solution to, well, almost everything WM/LJ related, thought we should have a dedicated thread; although it is perhaps worth pointing out that nowadays younger people tend to call them playlists and there are a vast amount of technology solutions dedicated to creating, honing and sharing. Never mind.

Another reason for such a thread is to recommend the excellent Mixtape from Alasdair Roberts, introduced in his self-deprecatory manner and, due to his recording via mikes in front of speakers, the sound under a thin blanket of static, hisses and clicks.
Excellent throughout, and the Joseph Spence reminded me of this - Eliza Carthy's rendition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRmyyfvh9fM

The mixtape show:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wvxs8

Of course, we need a Joseph Spence too..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWAIME-RU44

[french frank]

As this seems to be an r3 solution to, well, almost everything WM/LJ related …

And classical, with the In Tune mixtape

[DracoM]

Seems to me at the mo that R3 is trapped between the dying generation it seems to think it has traditionally thought of itself / the media world thinks it is largely catering for, and in the last five or so years, its frantic not to say almost psychopathic desperation to find a sustainable, growable audience in the U30's. BUT OTOH weirdly, apparently, R3 seems not the slightest bit concerned that that U30s audience comes from kids still now at SCHOOL - i.e. where the heck are the programmes / resources to get to SCHOOL-AGE would-be listeners? Ans = there aren't. So the school kids set off into the playlists / tracks world because that's what everyone round them does, isn't it, bro?

Mixtapes by and large seem NOT to be the 'dying's' chosen way of accessing music. locked as it is into whole pieces, but for the U30s and their playlist fixations, it is THE way, or so R3 seem to think. Mega-migraine for R3 is how do you get the 'young' to move from 'playlists' to real music i.e. complete pieces and become the core audience of the future? No need to abandon 'playlists ' / 'tracks', but at some point, the 'young' need to be induced / seduced / groomed into recognising that the Adagio from Mahler's 5th is not just 'Death in Venice' but a whole bluddy and very long symphony for them to sample / 'dive into' [- geddit?]

Unless you get the 'young' to dip their toes, reflective / debate-worthy programmes like the old Interpretations on Record, CD Masters etc or BAL are largely a waste of time since thrill rather than structure and interpretation are the way 'tracks' and 'playlists' work their [ahem] magic. It is a huge problem and it feels to me as if the R3 management is maybe terrified and in that terror flailing ever deeper into the cracks between the paving stones.

As FF so rightly says, R3 seems to be incrementally and increasingly lurching towards playlists / 'tracks' as if it were R2 or CFM. Cheaper? Thrill-a-minute desperation?

Q: does the BBC pay smaller royalties to performers / labels if they ONLY play a section of a piece than if they play a whole piece?

[Bergonzi]

Seems to me at the mo that R3 is trapped between the dying generation it seems to think it has traditionally thought of itself / the media world thinks it is largely catering for, and in the last five or so years, its frantic not to say almost psychopathic desperation to find a sustainable, growable audience in the U30's. BUT OTOH weirdly, apparently, R3 seems not the slightest bit concerned that that U30s audience comes from kids still now at SCHOOL - i.e. where the heck are the programmes / resources to get to SCHOOL-AGE would-be listeners? Ans = there aren't. So the school kids set off into the playlists / tracks world because that's what everyone round them does, isn't it, bro?

Mixtapes by and large seem NOT to be the 'dying's' chosen way of accessing music. locked as it is into whole pieces, but for the U30s and their playlist fixations, it is THE way, or so R3 seem to think. Mega-migraine for R3 is how do you get the 'young' to move from 'playlists' to real music i.e. complete pieces and become the core audience of the future? No need to abandon 'playlists ' / 'tracks', but at some point, the 'young' need to be induced / seduced / groomed into recognising that the Adagio from Mahler's 5th is not just 'Death in Venice' but a whole bluddy and very long symphony for them to sample / 'dive into' [- geddit?]

Unless you get the 'young' to dip their toes, reflective / debate-worthy programmes like the old Interpretations on Record, CD Masters etc or BAL are largely a waste of time since thrill rather than structure and interpretation are the way 'tracks' and 'playlists' work their [ahem] magic. It is a huge problem and it feels to me as if the R3 management is maybe terrified and in that terror flailing ever deeper into the cracks between the paving stones.

As FF so rightly says, R3 seems to be incrementally and increasingly lurching towards playlists / 'tracks' as if it were R2 or CFM. Cheaper? Thrill-a-minute desperation?

Q: does the BBC pay smaller royalties to performers / labels if they ONLY play a section of a piece than if they play a whole piece?

Very true.

[Lat-Literal]

It might be helpful if someone could define mixtape. Is it mainly the same as sticking a few tracks together on Spotify in a way that means there is no reason or need for it to be on any form of radio? This is a genuine question. I don't know the origins of this term. As the picture of the cassette indicates, it sounds like a term better suited to the 70s. Re playlist, that's been generally associated with the overly formulaic - stuff presenters have to play - rather than the inventive. As "headline grabbing concepts", both terms are as clear as mud to me.

[french frank]

Sorry to hijack Global's mixtape discussion but …

A slight correction to Draco's comment: the Radio 3 'replenisher' audience which they are after is the 35-54s, a generation that still goes to Glastonbury and which was brought up, overwhelmingly, without encountering any classical music other than through (probably without realising it) the hummable ads on television. The better informed among them will be aware that John Williams film music is classical music so it's not all bad.

The Radio 3 audience has an average age of 59 (mode 64), so the need to 'train up' a new audience is self-evident. I think it hasn't been done in the right way, and I've never made any secret of the fact that I hold today's BBC to blame, not Radio 3 which gives the impression of floundering about trying to please its paymasters who prefer to reward/invest in high audience entertainment broadcasting over small audience 'niche' (which is how they now regard classical music) services. Radio 6 Music was niche but no longer is as its audience has now overtaken Radio 3's. This is why they get an added few millions on their budget while Radio 3 gets a few knocked off.

I don't think the answer to classical music's 'problem' is to blur the distinction between 6 Music and Radio 3 (let alone with Classic FM by borrowing its presenters and launching new '6 Music' programmes on Radio 3. I don't think it's the answer because experience shows that listeners may 'visit' the new programmes, approve of them and then bugger off back to 6 Music for more of the real stuff.

(Though btw, there was a flicker of interest when they picked up on my comment that a return of Interpretations on Record would be welcomed. At Radio 3, they do still understand what we're saying.)

End of hijack.

[Bergonzi]

It (mixtape) has been described on line as mix of songs/pieces originally on cassette but later on CD. They can be someone's personal order and can be joined by cross fades etc. It was all started by those pesky disc-Jockeys ...

[Lat-Literal]

Sorry to hijack Global's mixtape discussion but …

A slight correction to Draco's comment: the Radio 3 'replenisher' audience which they are after is the 35-54s, a generation that still goes to Glastonbury and which was brought up, overwhelmingly, without encountering any classical music other than through (probably without realising it) the hummable ads on television. The better informed among them will be aware that John Williams film music is classical music so it's not all bad.

The Radio 3 audience has an average age of 59 (mode 64), so the need to 'train up' a new audience is self-evident. I think it hasn't been done in the right way, and I've never made any secret of the fact that I hold today's BBC to blame, not Radio 3 which gives the impression of floundering about trying to please its paymasters who prefer to reward/invest in high audience entertainment broadcasting over small audience 'niche' (which is how they now regard classical music) services. Radio 6 Music was niche but no longer is as its audience has now overtaken Radio 3's. This is why they get an added few millions on their budget while Radio 3 gets a few knocked off.

I don't think the answer to classical music's 'problem' is to blur the distinction between 6 Music and Radio 3 (let alone with Classic FM by borrowing its presenters and launching new '6 Music' programmes on Radio 3. I don't think it's the answer because experience shows that listeners may 'visit' the new programmes, approve of them and then bugger off back to 6 Music for more of the real stuff.

(Though btw, there was a flicker of interest when they picked up on my comment that a return of Interpretations on Record would be welcomed. At Radio 3, they do still understand what we're saying.)

End of hijack.

OMG, I am no longer in its desired cohort and haven't been since December. But, seriously, I think they have this wrong and I will explain why briefly. That description - ex Glastonbury - is not at all a bad fit for me. Hey, I was a/the trailblazer. Except that I wasn't typical then - although I made myself feel so and convincingly - and I certainly wouldn't be typical now.

I didn't attend until age 30. My musical background was broader. I have seen little evidence that post punk indie kids or the kids of those kids develop in droves towards classical music in their 30s. I made a point when at Eavis's place of being at classical music performances at 11am on Sundays. I can tell you there were about 200 of us there out of over 100,000.

No. This idea of development emanates from a slightly earlier era. It is about those who were in their 20s - perhaps even 30 - in 1975 and 1976. Pink Floydists, prog rockists, and to a lesser extent Kraftwerkers and electronicons. The generation for whom rock music was perceived as being almost like classical music. Consequently some of them would wish to move onwards and upwards, When I first went to Glastonbury in 1993, some of them were there alongside the splendidly unreconstructed sitting in the green fields with bongs. 99% of them were male. By 2000, nearly all of them had gone, to business, family and probably 5 Live. They are now at the very least in their 60s. Some of them - and good for them - are older.

My indie generation was possibly a bit brighter and more culturally astute. That didn't mean that most I knew had any leanings towards the highbrow. The new younger Glasto goers, I would argue, are far more mainstream and if anything furthest from R3. As for Classic FM, I really don't know where it gets its audience figures from. I don't see them. I don't meet these people other than at the dentists. My gut feeling is that they are knob twiddlers who jump in their cars and have whatever happens to seem alright as the background to traffic.

59 as an average age could almost be considered a success. It is, after all, halfway between 18 and 100. But more than ever today, the key to retaining an audience for classical music on radio is in novel and broad reaching approaches to music in schools and colleges. We need modern David Bedfords and David Munrows who while they may have a popular music sensibility do not see pop music as being the springboard but one part of music's tapestry. And the demographics are very important here too. Whether or not people like gearing, the future of music will be more about women and more about people of ethnicity because that is how society is changing. But we are talking late teens here. Not those who are now 34.

[french frank]

More than happy to continue this debate - but should it be moved to a separate thread so that this one can focus on the topic?

[Lat-Literal]

More than happy to continue this debate - but should it be moved to a separate thread so that this one can focus on the topic?

Yes - that would be fine by me if GT is agreeable. I probably haven't got a lot more to say except to mention Dudamel again - perhaps Alsop too - because we have choices here. We can say "oh, that's over there and he is a showman and a bit light in presentation" or we can say we need a couple of thousand of these people in our schools to generate excitement.

[Lat-Literal]

It (mixtape) has been described on line as mix of songs/pieces originally on cassette but later on CD. They can be someone's personal order and can be joined by cross fades etc. It was all started by those pesky disc-Jockeys ...

Yes, thank you, well, I suppose it has had various eras from taping the Top 30 off the radio when cassettes were invented through the C86 lo-fi fringe cassette thing and onto the club DJ/Gilles Peterson sort of vibe. Personally, I do prefer a voice between tracks. Enthusiastic, informative, etc. Two tracks back to back is alright. Three - and my mind will easily wander.

[johncorrigan]

As this seems to be an r3 solution to, well, almost everything WM/LJ related, thought we should have a dedicated thread; although it is perhaps worth pointing out that nowadays younger people tend to call them playlists and there are a vast amount of technology solutions dedicated to creating, honing and sharing. Never mind.

Another reason for such a thread is to recommend the excellent Mixtape from Alasdair Roberts, introduced in his self-deprecatory manner and, due to his recording via mikes in front of speakers, the sound under a thin blanket of static, hisses and clicks.
Excellent throughout, and the Joseph Spence reminded me of this - Eliza Carthy's rendition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRmyyfvh9fM

The mixtape show:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wvxs8

Of course, we need a Joseph Spence too..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWAIME-RU44

Thanks Gt...I really enjoyed the Alasdair Roberts Mixtape for many of the reasons you mentioned. I enjoy a mixtape - they are a bit hit and miss on LJ, but in general they break things up a bit. I often wonder what I would put on one for the late night audience. I used to make them for people to try to get them to think about other types of music, and people did it to me too, and some of them still kick around the house and remind me of friends no longer with us and many who still are.

[Globaltruth]

Yes, feel free to move this thread.
I've got another theory I'd like to toss in which is about loss of ability to concentrate induced by the collective butterfly mind of social media.
A nice sweeping generalisation, but I think it may have some merit.
Oh well, enough of that

We have a pleasant fellow who does that sort of thread heavy lifting for us..most obliging

[french frank]

Yes, feel free to move this thread.

I meant leave your thread about mixtapes here and have a new thread moving the R3 digression of which I was largely guilty. But we seem to be back on topic now.

I've got another theory I'd like to toss in which is about loss of ability to concentrate induced by the collective butterfly mind of social media.

I'm not even sure how people listen to mixtapes. If the word 'curate' could be used at all, I would understand how a mixtape could be curated, that there would some sort of logical flow created by the compiler which would, vitally, be appreciated by a careful listener. Is that what happens? Or is it simply what 'young people' have on in the background while they do their homework (and mutatis mutandis older people too)?

[Globaltruth]

I'm not even sure how people listen to mixtapes. If the word 'curate' could be used at all, I would understand how a mixtape could be curated, that there would some sort of logical flow created by the compiler which would, vitally, be appreciated by a careful listener. Is that what happens? Or is it simply what 'young people' have on in the background while they do their homework (and mutatis mutandis older people too)?

Not exactly a 'logical' flow, more one that is meaningful and also responsive to the music it contains, sometimes in contrast. As was mentioned earlier, it is a form of DJ'ing. [DJ is an abbreviation for an American phrase 'Disc Jockey', the English version POGR* never really caught on.]
Can't imagine why not. I think this was a shortened version of POGRWDIADJ**
*Player Of Gramophone Records
** Player Of Gramophone Records Whilst Dressed In A Dinner Jacket. I have a conspiracy theory that the Americans just stole the DJ bit!!