Newly released / found music of a certain sort

[cloughie]

Yes, I don't underestimate George Harrison in any way or the manner in which so much goes back to the Beatles of whom I am a huge fan. Harrison, in fact, is my favourite Beatle if I can put it in those terms. I am aware of the labels you mentioned and from that time and even have memories, hazy, of "The Perfumed Garden". There is a Peel link. While he shifted enormously and no doubt cleverly he represented continuity. Life had changed. I can't help but think that indie emanated from people's bedrooms and houses - the same was true of early 1980s' pop electronica - whereas that isn't quite my placing of Prog etc. It seems to have always been "out there" in every respect whether that was among trees with very strange hues or in UFO style clubs. Obviously I'm heading towards psychedelia there. But whether emanating from schools or estates or squats or any other union, it was communally derived. Indie in contrast came at a time when there was less of community. It was a sort of stay-at-home computer generation before the introduction of computers!

I reckon psychedelia was underground, prog very much marked its presence communally overground, and indie was more of a roots music from people who had no communal roots per se. The first two would have been counter-culture as indeed was punk and later "the rave scene". Indie - and I was close to it - wasn't overtly political. It accepted things were being done differently in wider society as a whole, shrugged it shoulders, and went its own way. In that respect, it is perhaps nearer to ethics in folk or world or jazz. Also, all of them were ostensibly male vis a vis artists. How many women were in Prog Rock or even psychedelia for that matter? Not many. There were quite a few in indie! There were also class background differences. It seems to me that while the heavy end of rock was often working class, the rest was very middle class. But, yes, Peel reflected those changes.

Probably there weren't quite as many women around the music scene in the 60s but the Peel Top Gear and Wednesday evening programme reflected well those around - many adding electricity to folk - Joan Baez, Julie Felix, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, Melanie, Fairports - Judy Dyble then Sandy, Eclection, Bridget StJohn, Janis Joplin, Nico, Vashti, Marianne Faithfulland certainly the songwriters were there - Malvina Reynolds, Buffy StMarie. *Most of these singers could sing rather than just throw notes around. Just seen Anastacia on Strictly - need I say more. Every decade has its good singers, and it's overhyped successes.
*From the above list how could I forget the folk supergroup Pentangle and the amazing Jacqui McShee.

[Lat-Literal]

Probably there weren't quite as many women around the music scene in the 60s but the Peel Top Gear and Wednesday evening programme reflected well those around - many adding electricity to folk - Joan Baez, Julie Felix, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, Melanie, Fairports - Judy Dyble then Sandy, Eclection, Bridget StJohn, Janis Joplin, Nico, Vashti, Marianne Faithfulland certainly the songwriters were there - Malvina Reynolds, Buffy StMarie. *Most of these singers could sing rather than just throw notes around. Just seen Anastacia on Strictly - need I say more. Every decade has its good singers, and it's overhyped successes.
*From the above list how could I forget the folk supergroup Pentangle and the amazing Jacqui McShee.

Yes indeed - and you mention some great names there.

A couple of bits and pieces (very random) from this year:

Gurrumul & Kelly - Amazing Grace - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVORrx9jIiE
Vishten - Terre Rouge - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO1ZI14G-qk
Blick Bassy - Ake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yR7kHzMfe8
Xaos - Pointos Blues - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyG3UeYbAHk
Dayme Arocena - Cry Me A River - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpuG1_1Vcfg

[cloughie]

Yes indeed - and you mention some great names there.

Vishten - Terre Rouge - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO1ZI14G-qk

I'll retire from this thread now and leave it to those for whom World Music is their forte!

[Lat-Literal]

I'll retire from this thread now and leave it to those for whom World Music is their forte!

Well, I certainly hope you don't make that retirement a permanent thing. I would have thought that the vast majority on your list could be - and are - discussed here. There are no hard and fast rules so far as I can see. I just felt that if I was going to take, say, a Sedaka into the forum for comment, it was better to go on the song thread. I can fully see why Global preferred to have Queen and 10CC there. There are nuances in several areas - King, perhaps Springsteen, Newman etc, yes can be here - but I guess the ones that are generally not for here are those which don't have an easy link to anything of a roots nature. But as JC's Joe Boyd link revealed, even the Beach Boys can be seen as connected.

Visit often!

A couple of footnotes:

I play devil's advocate a bit.

There is a line of thinking that says "if you go for Carole King then why not Sedaka or Pink Floyd then why not 10CC or Deep Purple then why not Television or The Blue Nile then why not China Crisis or Shostakovich then why not Renaissance"......it would be fair to say that I particularly like to dabble with the very middle of the road end of it because of its reputation. Tease out where it might not be quite as lightweight or kitsch, the latter actually being a rather modern concept that has been layered onto a lot of it - so you get a roots link here, an indie link there etc - Gallagher likes Bacharach. Peel enjoyed Eurovision - it just adds to people's options if they want them. Most will not want them either because they just don't want them or they know about these things already. Also, this particular thread is for new music, not that you would know it from my natural tangents.

My apologies to our host!

[Globaltruth]

Well, I certainly hope you don't make that retirement a permanent thing. I would have thought that the vast majority on your list could be - and are - discussed here. There are no hard and fast rules so far as I can see. I just felt that if I was going to take say a Sedaka into the forum for comment, it was better to go on the song thread. I can fully see why Global preferred to have Queen and 10CC there. There are nuances in several areas - King, perhaps Springsteen, Newman etc - and I guess the ones that are generally not for here are those who couldn't conceivably have an easy link to anything of a roots nature. But as JC's Joe Boyd link revealed, even the Beach Boys can be seen as connected. Visit often!

A couple of footnotes:

I play devil's advocate a bit.

There is a line of thinking that says "if you go for Carole King then why not Sedaka or Pink Floyd then why not 10CC or Deep Purple then why not Television or The Blue Nile then why not China Crisis or Shostakovich then why not Renaissance"......it would be fair to say that I particularly like to dabble with the very middle of the road end of it because of its reputation. Tease out where it might not be quite as lightweight or kitsch, the latter actually being a rather modern concept that has been layered onto a lot of it - so you get a roots link here, an indie link there etc - Gallagher likes Bacharach. Peel enjoyed Eurovision - it just adds to people's options if they want them. Most will not want them either because they just don't want them or they know about these things already. Also, this particular thread is for new music, not that you would know it from my natural tangents.

My apologies to our host!

I think this sub-forum should be predominately WM related, the clue being in the name; however the debate around what WM means is a hoary, imprecise (and for me personally, tedious) one, therefore won't be too proscriptive - having said that, other sub-forums on this forum exist where several of the artists mentioned on this sub-forum could be appropriately discussed with a (hopefully) wider audience, so I'd have no compunction in having specific threads moved to a more appropriate home.

I'm all for a bit of devil's advocacy as long as there is some point to it...

[french frank]

There would be a case for including Late Junction, for instance, formally on the Playlists board, with specific world music discussions about the content started on the current World Music board, rather than lumped in on an existing thread. World Music would be for general topics, with a separate sub-forum for World on 3 …

Specific threads like "What Rock/Pop/Jazz-rock/Fusion/Prog/Experimental etc album are you listening to?" "Shoot your idols - Adele at the Beeb", and " The Somewhat Delayed Song Thread" which either start or finish talking about anything but classical music are currrently on Talking about Music. Currently jazz and world fans start threads like that on Talking about Music so the board might be removed to a revamped Platform 3, rather than remaining on Classical Forum?

Thoughts?

[Lat-Literal]

I think this sub-forum should be predominately WM related, the clue being in the name; however the debate around what WM means is a hoary, imprecise (and for me personally, tedious) one, therefore won't be too proscriptive - having said that, other sub-forums on this forum exist where several of the artists mentioned on this sub-forum could be appropriately discussed with a (hopefully) wider audience, so I'd have no compunction in having specific threads moved to a more appropriate home.

I'm all for a bit of devil's advocacy as long as there is some point to it...

There would be a case for including Late Junction, for instance, formally on the Playlists board, with specific world music discussions about the content started on the current World Music board, rather than lumped in on an existing thread. World Music would be for general topics, with a separate sub-forum for World on 3 …

Specific threads like "What Rock/Pop/Jazz-rock/Fusion/Prog/Experimental etc album are you listening to?" "Shoot your idols - Adele at the Beeb", and " The Somewhat Delayed Song Thread" which either start or finish talking about anything but classical music are currrently on Talking about Music. Currently jazz and world fans start threads like that on Talking about Music so the board might be removed to a revamped Platform 3, rather than remaining on Classical Forum?

Thoughts?

The two main threads were started by Beef Oven and teamsaint. Consequently, they are in a better position than me to comment on your suggestions in the second paragraph. But it seems to me that both those threads are designed to include popular music. While rock music isn't specifically excluded from teamsaint's, there is a difference in emphasis. That one includes classical music. Rob posted a list of classical songs on that thread and I have posted songs by Gershwin and Copland. Beef Oven's probably does not include classical music apart from the experimental and it does specifically mention rock music. Additionally, teamsaint's excludes instrumental pop/rock music whereas Beef Oven's includes it.

Then as you say there are threads like the one on Adele that arise sporadically. My approach has been not to open new threads of that kind but to post within exiting parameters so as not to flood the classical or indeed WM boards. I see the distinctions between world, jazz and classical sections on the forum as being sufficiently significant as to be marked by a line but I would also see that line as dotted so as not "to silo". The A to Z did bring in additional readers to the WM forum - it was evident in the number being shown which at times went up to double figures - and I see that as a good thing. The devil's advocacy point is essentially about whether music that is often regarded as not having any substance actually does have some substance and, if so, what is it? There may be more of an audience for it than is generally indicated. For example, I have been surprised at the number of classicists who have commented on Adele and Winehouse with certainty about what they see as key distinctions. That, in itself, is interesting. Their involvement and opinion.

I'm not sure that the point about Late Junction in your first paragraph quite works for me. We have threads on LJ here. They seem to be fine but I don't have any strong opinions.

[french frank]

Thanks, Lat - will mull that. Re the last para: I think GT would feel (as I do re 'Classical Forum') that it's one thing to have Pick 'n' Mix 'spaces' but still valuable to 'silo' (unfashionable though some may claim that to be!). So the suggestion was that LJ as a programme should be on Playlists but world music content on LJ could be on the World Music, erm, silo …

I was going to air this more widely when views had been gathered here. With the 'song' thread my own experience was that having understood that it would be about classical songs/art song/lieder (being on Classical Forum) and posted accordingly, after about the three odd posts that discussed what I had posted, it veered off into various forms of pop/rock/jazz/fusion and I haven't been back to the thread since.

[Lat-Literal]

Thanks, Lat - will mull that. Re the last para: I think GT would feel (as I do re 'Classical Forum') that it's one thing to have Pick 'n' Mix 'spaces' but still valuable to 'silo' (unfashionable though some may claim that to be!). So the suggestion was that LJ as a programme should be on Playlists but world music content on LJ could be on the World Music, erm, silo …

I was going to air this more widely when views had been gathered here. With the 'song' thread my own experience was that having understood that it would be about classical songs/art song/lieder (being on Classical Forum) and posted accordingly, after about the three odd posts that discussed what I had posted, it veered off into various forms of pop/rock/jazz/fusion and I haven't been back to the thread since.

Yes, thank you. I really don't have strong views on this matter and will, as I have been, be guided by what has been posted. So LJ as a programme on Playlists - I can understand it - but wouldn't that require the category "Playlists" to be separated from the "Classical Music" banner? Perhaps it wouldn't - I don't know. There is classical music on LJ but what an LJ Playlist thread might effectively do is approach LJ as a classical music programme, perhaps with regular criticism of the fact that it isn't wholly a classical music programme.

Also, jazz or WM comment on LJ could move beyond those forums to comment on that comment! So it could colour the classical tone of the "Playlists" section and even be a bit tetchy but then again maybe it wouldn't be. Another possibility is that it would have hardly any comment at all and the programme would appear "unpopular" because of it but only as most comment on it would be elsewhere. It's up to others to decide. I doubt I'd be commenting on it other than on any schedule changes. I recognise there are no easy answers!

I fully see your point on the song thread and also note the historical development of that thread. There is now an interesting thread on classical songs/art song/lieder which has been informative/educational and to which I have contributed but "Song" is teamsaint's thread. I don't know what teamsaint's view is now. Without doing so, I don't have an opinion.

[french frank]

You're right - it wouldn't be straightforward which is why I'll take soundings before spending some time on the rearrangement (only to have The Other Half whinging) .

[Lat-Literal]

You're right - it wouldn't be straightforward which is why I'll take soundings before spending some time on the rearrangement (only to have The Other Half whinging) .

[Globaltruth]

It's historical that LJ gets discussed here - change can be good, may open it up to more discussion if it were moved. Either way is fine - I shall still listen, and still post, irrespective of where it is on the forum.

As to the wider topic - an imprecise, wandering silo is ok, as is a precise silo as is a mixture of both, however the wrong sort of silo is always to be avoided. I hope everyone agrees?

Here's a picture of a damaged silo showing what happens to them when they get the wind up them. I think it helps move the argument along...

[french frank]

[Lat-Literal]

Think the instruction against "silos" came in the workplace at the same time as one for the department to be more "outward facing". While inclined to individual introspection, it was possibly the first time that I had ever contemplated that a group of people might not instinctively "face outwards". Anyhow, I knew if that if I left it for a few days, some sort of link between Tom Jones and an artist featured regularly on this thread would present itself. My mind had gone blank when he was mentioned. It turns out that he appeared with Van Morrison at London's "Bluesfest" earlier in the month but, oh dear, at the O2. To get it back on track, a not too bad a thing from Peru which while dated 2014 is new to CD:

Bareto - La Voz del Sinchi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEKbDa2a89o

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/nov/19/bareto-impredecible-review-experimental-party-album

[teamsaint]

Thanks, Lat - will mull that. Re the last para: I think GT would feel (as I do re 'Classical Forum') that it's one thing to have Pick 'n' Mix 'spaces' but still valuable to 'silo' (unfashionable though some may claim that to be!). So the suggestion was that LJ as a programme should be on Playlists but world music content on LJ could be on the World Music, erm, silo …

I was going to air this more widely when views had been gathered here. With the 'song' thread my own experience was that having understood that it would be about classical songs/art song/lieder (being on Classical Forum) and posted accordingly, after about the three odd posts that discussed what I had posted, it veered off into various forms of pop/rock/jazz/fusion and I haven't been back to the thread since.

I was hoping it would be a wide ranging mix FF, ( covering song of all eras) since we already have a dedicated Rock and Pop thread, ( where much of the content is song of that kind)? But it hasn't quite worked out that way.

My tentative guidelines dont seem to have worked out.
But apart from that it has been a great success