Prom 70: The Philadelphia Orchestra and Yannick Nézet-Séguin (8.09.22)

[smittims]

Tempo in 'Nimrod' would fill a chapter. I'm told Elgar conducted it at various tempi on different occasions,and Sir Adrian Boult's four published and additional concert recordings seem to reflect this .

[seabright]

Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian' writes that the period of mourning has been "grossly oversold by the BBC" and he's quite right. To have closed down two channels and endlessly replayed the same old film clips and interviews on BBC 1 and 2 all day long might well have been considered counter-productive. To cancel the two Philadelphia concerts as well was ludicrous. They could easily have continued with the programme after the "National Anthem" and "Nimrod" and no-one would have thought any the worse of them if they'd done so. They could have done what a couple of English football teams in the Championship abroad did on the evening of the monarch's death - they observed a minute's silence at the start of their matches and wore black armbands.

I'm reminded that when the twin towers in New York were attacked on 9/11, Leonard Slatkin was due to oversee the Last Night a few days later but said he couldn't conduct that kind of jamboree with thousands of his fellow Americans lying dead. He wanted to hand the baton to someone else but was told it was not possible. As a result, an agreement was reached in which the traditional second half would be replaced by the "Ode to Joy" from the Beethoven 9th. Slatkin gave an absolutely electrifying performance, happily preserved on YouTube. Why the BBC couldn't allow the Philadelphians similarly to go ahead, particularly with the "Eroica" on the programme, in my opinion suggests poor decision making.

[PhilipT]

.. To cancel the two Philadelphia concerts as well was ludicrous. ..

The rumour at 3pm yesterday, when the promenaders placed the carnations that would have been used to make buttonholes for the performers at the Last Night around the dedication stone of the Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Steps, was that the decision was the Royal Albert Hall's, not the BBC's, and that their argument was "She was our patron and we are closing.". Just a rumour, nothing more.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The rumour at 3pm yesterday, when the promenaders placed the carnations that would have been used to make buttonholes for the performers at the Last Night around the dedication stone of the Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Steps, was that the decision was the Royal Albert Hall's, not the BBC's, and that their argument was "She was our patron and we are closing.". Just a rumour, nothing more.

That rumour has the merit of explaining why after 9/11 and Diana’s death the Proms went ahead - though both concerts required much quick thinking and extra rehearsal.

[Darkbloom]

Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian' writes that the period of mourning has been "grossly oversold by the BBC" and he's quite right. To have closed down two channels and endlessly replayed the same old film clips and interviews on BBC 1 and 2 all day long might well have been considered counter-productive. To cancel the two Philadelphia concerts as well was ludicrous. They could easily have continued with the programme after the "National Anthem" and "Nimrod" and no-one would have thought any the worse of them if they'd done so. They could have done what a couple of English football teams in the Championship abroad did on the evening of the monarch's death - they observed a minute's silence at the start of their matches and wore black armbands.

I'm reminded that when the twin towers in New York were attacked on 9/11, Leonard Slatkin was due to oversee the Last Night a few days later but said he couldn't conduct that kind of jamboree with thousands of his fellow Americans lying dead. He wanted to hand the baton to someone else but was told it was not possible. As a result, an agreement was reached in which the traditional second half would be replaced by the "Ode to Joy" from the Beethoven 9th. Slatkin gave an absolutely electrifying performance, happily preserved on YouTube. Why the BBC couldn't allow the Philadelphians similarly to go ahead, particularly with the "Eroica" on the programme, in my opinion suggests poor decision making.

Yes, it feels like we are back in the 1950s at the moment, when this kind of deferential behaviour was expected and went unquestioned. I think the main reason for the BBC's OTT approach has much more to do with their terror of getting on the wrong end of some Daily Mail hate mob. They would rather be accused of doing too much than not enough, I'm sure.

[Barbirollians]

Yes, it feels like we are back in the 1950s at the moment, when this kind of deferential behaviour was expected and went unquestioned. I think the main reason for the BBC's OTT approach has much more to do with their terror of getting on the wrong end of some Daily Mail hate mob. They would rather be accused of doing too much than not enough, I'm sure.

Very true which I think also explains the idiocy of football and racing cancelling on Saturday - only for cricket to show exactly how sport could and should have continued with respect.

[Master Jacques]

Am I alone in finding the cancellation of the last two Proms both seemly and entirely correct?

Just because commercial considerations have the whip hand when it comes to sport, does not mean that the arts must follow suit. Very many people in our four countries (and we can add many others including France - and Spain, where Madrid has announced three days of official mourning this week for Queen Elizabeth) are feeling hollow and bereft, so taking a substantial pause from the customary wall-to-wall noise and entertainment, seems to me at the very least a token of respect for our fellow citizens. This is about the feelings of the living, not the dead.

As for the idea of performing the Eroica, words fail me. It contains a ceremonial, public funeral march, yes: it also contains a jocular scherzo and a witty set of variations on a theme from his ballet The Creatures of Prometheus. Anything less appropriate for a time of quiet, personal reflections on the passing of 70 years is hard to imagine. The time for celebration comes later. Meanwhile, I think we might be a little more thoughtful, and a little less selfish, perhaps?

[Pulcinella]

Am I alone in finding the cancellation of the last two Proms both seemly and entirely correct?

Just because commercial considerations have the whip hand when it comes to sport, does not mean that the arts must follow suit. Very many people in our four countries (and we can add many others including France - and Spain, where Madrid has announced three days of official mourning this week for Queen Elizabeth) are feeling hollow and bereft, so taking a substantial pause from the customary wall-to-wall noise and entertainment, seems to me at the very least a token of respect for our fellow citizens. This is about the feelings of the living, not the dead.

As for the idea of performing the Eroica, words fail me. It contains a ceremonial, public funeral march, yes: it also contains a jocular scherzo and a witty set of variations on a theme from his ballet The Creatures of Prometheus. Anything less appropriate for a time of quiet, personal reflections on the passing of 70 years is hard to imagine. The time for celebration comes later. Meanwhile, I think we might be a little more thoughtful, and a little less selfish, perhaps?

Maybe not quite alone, but I think it is becoming increasingly apparent from reports in the media that the queen wanted normal life to continue as much as possible.
She of all people was surely of the 'the show must go on' brigade.
In my opinion, it would not remotely have been disrespectful to have had the two Philadelphia concerts proceed as planned.
A slightly revised Last Night could have been fairly readily organised for all the many thousands of people who would have attended or watched to have had a meaningful event to focus on instead of what apparently (I refused to watch any broadcast) was endless commentary and lots of nothing happening.

[Master Jacques]

Maybe not quite alone, but I think it is becoming increasingly apparent from reports in the media that the queen wanted normal life to continue as much as possible.
She of all people was surely of the 'the show must go on' brigade.
In my opinion, it would not remotely have been disrespectful to have had the two Philadelphia concerts proceed as planned.
A slightly revised Last Night could have been fairly readily organised for all the many thousands of people who would have attended or watched to have had a meaningful event to focus on instead of what apparently (I refused to watch any broadcast) was endless commentary and lots of nothing happening.

Personally, I am saddened by these "show must go on" demands.

At the risk of seeming callous, the "it's what she would have wanted" argument seems to me to be (a) unprovable, and (b) completely beside the point. It is indeed a question of paying respect, as you say. But not to a dead Queen, who will have her day of funeral rites on Monday 19th. Rather, we should be respectful of the very large number of our shocked and tearful fellow citizens - outside we lucky few who have time and money to gratify nearly every wish, and seem to feel we have the inalienable right to do so. It is those fellow citizens who need a little space, free from the constant assault and battery of quotidian sporting and musical events.

"A lot of nothing" is a good phrase. Surely, a quiet slowing down for contemplation is what these special days ought to be about, rather than chop-logic, hypocritical demonstrations of pseudo-respect which by happy chance take the form of ... well, doing precisely what we wanted to do in the first place.

[Pulcinella]

Personally, I am saddened by these "show must go on" demands.

At the risk of seeming callous, the "it's what she would have wanted" argument seems to me to be (a) unprovable, and (b) completely beside the point. It is indeed a question of paying respect, as you say. But not to a dead Queen, who will have her day of funeral rites on Monday 19th. Rather, we should be respectful of the very large number of our shocked and tearful fellow citizens - outside we lucky few who have time and money to gratify nearly every wish, and seem to feel we have the inalienable right to do so. It is those fellow citizens who need a little space, free from the constant assault and battery of quotidian sporting and musical events.

"A lot of nothing" is a good phrase. Surely, a quiet slowing down for contemplation is what these special days ought to be about, rather than chop-logic, hypocritical demonstrations of pseudo-respect which by happy chance take the form of ... well, doing precisely what we wanted to do in the first place.

We must agree to disagree.
There are reports of conversations the queen had with people about continuing their normal everyday lives.

By 'a lot of nothing' I was referring to what I heard was the case of reporters standing outside Balmoral, Sandringham, and other places, just waiting for something to happen that they could report on, when nothing reportable was actually going on.

It you didn't want to listen to the Prom but preferred to hold your own respectful silence or whatever, you could still have had that option simply by not turning it on. The rest of us weren't given that option.

Our evening choir practice went ahead as normal. I was outside the main rehearsal room at the start preparing some paperwork for signing (a new commission: the composer was there) and I think there may have been a minute's silence and then our usual warm up.

Nothing to do with being shocked, tearful, or having money.
Choirs sing; orchestras give concerts; footballers play football.
Except apparently they shouldn't.

[Petrushka]

Am I alone in finding the cancellation of the last two Proms both seemly and entirely correct?

Just because commercial considerations have the whip hand when it comes to sport, does not mean that the arts must follow suit. Very many people in our four countries (and we can add many others including France - and Spain, where Madrid has announced three days of official mourning this week for Queen Elizabeth) are feeling hollow and bereft, so taking a substantial pause from the customary wall-to-wall noise and entertainment, seems to me at the very least a token of respect for our fellow citizens. This is about the feelings of the living, not the dead.

As for the idea of performing the Eroica, words fail me. It contains a ceremonial, public funeral march, yes: it also contains a jocular scherzo and a witty set of variations on a theme from his ballet The Creatures of Prometheus. Anything less appropriate for a time of quiet, personal reflections on the passing of 70 years is hard to imagine. The time for celebration comes later. Meanwhile, I think we might be a little more thoughtful, and a little less selfish, perhaps?

A thoughtful and considered post with which I find much to agree.

The BBC are in a no-win situation no matter what they do, damned if they do and damned if they don't.

There were calls from various quarters to change the programme of the Last Night of the Proms to something more suitable (the Verdi Requiem was mentioned, for example) but people seem to have no idea of the logistics involved in putting on such a demanding work on a day's rehearsal.

As Polly Toynbee said in a Guardian article, the Queen's death reminds us of our own losses and a period of quiet reflection is entirely the right thing to do. Life goes on, of course, and no doubt will be back to normal after next Monday.

[Master Jacques]

We must agree to disagree ... [snip] ...
Nothing to do with being shocked, tearful, or having money.
Choirs sing; orchestras give concerts; footballers play football.
Except apparently they shouldn't.

"Agreeing to disagree" is a strategy which butters few if any parsnips!

I will shut up now, except to protest that this is not about what you or I might choose to do with our Saturday evenings. (Personally, I chose to listen to Finzi's A Young Man's Exhortation, with John Mark Ainsley and Iain Burnside). It is about paying respect to the grief of others, which is a responsibility we have to one another, as members of the larger society.

Was it John Donne who said: "He who mocks his fellow's grief, mocks only his own funeral"? Well, though we may not quite be talking about "mockery" here, we are talking about indifference to the feelings of others, which amounts - it seems to me - to much the same thing.

[PhilipT]

Well, though we may not quite be talking about "mockery" here, we are talking about indifference to the feelings of others, which amounts - it seems to me - to much the same thing.

Well, no. There are deaths, and funerals, and other reasons some people have to mourn, every day of the year. There are births, and marriages, and anniversaries, and other reasons some people have to celebrate, every day of the year. I do not think that any one group should claim precedence over any other group. It seems you do.

[Master Jacques]

Well, no. There are deaths, and funerals, and other reasons some people have to mourn, every day of the year. There are births, and marriages, and anniversaries, and other reasons some people have to celebrate, every day of the year. I do not think that any one group should claim precedence over any other group. It seems you do.

Sorry to have offended you. In fact, I haven't spoken of my personal feelings about the royal death, and claim no "precedence" over others, for feeling one way or another. But the grief is around us here and now, as I am sure you can see. And I certainly do have the sense that something is badly wrong with us, when cancelling one celebratory jamboree (or postponing a few footie matches) is greeted with general irritation, as some sort of strike at the roots of personal liberty.

In any case, you omit to mention the salient fact of this particular death: that it cuts across a multitude of individual families, and has affected many people (though not everyone, clearly) across the nation, and internationally. That is the difference from a normal "death in the family", and it should be acknowledged by those determined to do their own thing in their own way, with hardly a pause.

Running the St. Leger at Doncaster one day later than planned has hardly rocked the earth on its axis, and cancelling the Last Night of the Proms will make next year's all the sweeter. After all, the complainers are getting a free Bank Holiday on the 19th in compensation.

[Pulcinella]

Sorry to have offended you. In fact, I haven't spoken of my personal feelings about the royal death, and claim no "precedence" over others, for feeling one way or another. But the grief is around us here and now, as I am sure you can see. And I certainly do have the sense that something is badly wrong with us, when cancelling one celebratory jamboree (or postponing a few footie matches) is greeted with general irritation, as some sort of strike at the roots of personal liberty.

In any case, you omit to mention the salient fact of this particular death: that it cuts across a multitude of individual families, and has affected many people (though not everyone, clearly) across the nation, and internationally. That is the difference from a normal "death in the family", and it should be acknowledged by those determined to do their own thing in their own way, with hardly a pause.

Running the St. Leger at Doncaster one day later than planned has hardly rocked the earth on its axis, and cancelling the Last Night of the Proms will make next year's all the sweeter. After all, the complainers are getting a free Bank Holiday on the 19th in compensation.

My next door neighbours, who work for a company with international branches, will both be working on Monday, as they have scheduled meetings.
Their daughter, however, will not be at nursery because of the bank holiday.
The parents are now having to shuffle their meetings around to take turns looking after their daughter.
I don't call that compensation.

The real disrespect in my book was that shown/given to the Philadelphia orchestra, the audience in the hall, and those at home looking forward to the concert.