Prom 49: Rattle conducts Mahler’s ‘Resurrection’ Symphony (24.08.22)

[LHC]

Don’t misinterpret me - Mahler majored in Symphonies - Wagner majored in Opera. I’ll not get into any discussion as to whether Operas are Symphonic or for that matter Symphonies are operatic my musical/musicological knowledge does not stretch that far. Clearly my love of Wagner’s Preludes, Liebestod, Good Friday Music, Bacchanale, Valkary Ride and Rhine Journey leave me in no doubt of the high quality of Wagner’s Orchestral writing. Did he meander in his operas - probably a smidgen - they were long, so he could’ve got away with it - does it matter - not really!

As Rossini is reported to have said "Mr. Wagner a de beaux moments, mais de mauvais quart d’heures!"

[Ein Heldenleben]

As Rossini is reported to have said "Mr. Wagner a de beaux moments, mais de mauvais quart d’heures!"

Yes he did but there’s more music in 12 bars of Tristan than an entire act of Rossini - much though I like him!

[RichardB]

Isn’t the usual ecstatic (in the non religious sense ) response to the end of the Resurrection rather similar to the enthusiastic applauding at Party conferences? - only a minority really believe it and the rest think it’s a vaguely good idea. As a USP though the promise of Eternal life takes some beating.
Seriously though aren’t most people just responding to Mahler’s music and not the text ? - many won’t even know what the words mean. My “problem “ with the symphony are movements 2 and 3 which often sound a bit meandering. Great first , fourth and fifth though.

While the music is taking place one can be sufficiently involved in it to "believe" in it; if, during a performance, you start thinking to yourself "wait a minute, this is all mumbo-jumbo" then either the composer or the performer or the listener or some combination of these is not sufficiently engaged in what they're doing. As for the "meandering" central movements, a structure where the outer movements provide a frame and context for more divergent inner components is something Mahler clearly found to be a sort of shape with enough potential to be repeatedly explored, as in nos. 2, 3, 7, 9 and 10 most obviously, and others to a less developed or more subtle extent. In no.2, the onward pressure and momentum of the outer movements contrasts with the more static "scenes" of the inner ones, in a way that I would say creates an overall sense of balance even in such an extended and diverse structure. You might feel that sometimes, for example in the third movement, "nothing is really happening", but what actually is happening is that the passage of time is being "coloured" by something which thus colours the memory or what came before and the anticipation of what's to come next. I find all this really fascinating although I don't really have the words to describe my thoughts accurately. I should say that actually no.2 is probably the Mahler symphony I listen to and/or think about least often, but this is probably more to do with issues like the orchestral sound not yet having achieved the subtlety and individuality that it does in subsequent works.

[Pulcinella]

Yes he did but there’s more music in 12 bars of Tristan than an entire act of Rossini - much though I like him!

Perhaps we need a new crossed-storyline thread for amusement: what if......?

It's the thieving magpie that steals the gold, not Alberich.

[LHC]

Yes he did but there’s more music in 12 bars of Tristan than an entire act of Rossini - much though I like him!

Oh I agree completely. Its just that cloughie's comment on the bits of Wagner he liked reminded me of Rossini's put-down.

[Bryn]

While the music is taking place one can be sufficiently involved in it to "believe" in it; if, during a performance, you start thinking to yourself "wait a minute, this is all mumbo-jumbo" then either the composer or the performer or the listener or some combination of these is not sufficiently engaged in what they're doing. As for the "meandering" central movements, a structure where the outer movements provide a frame and context for more divergent inner components is something Mahler clearly found to be a sort of shape with enough potential to be repeatedly explored, as in nos. 2, 3, 7, 9 and 10 most obviously, and others to a less developed or more subtle extent. In no.2, the onward pressure and momentum of the outer movements contrasts with the more static "scenes" of the inner ones, in a way that I would say creates an overall sense of balance even in such an extended and diverse structure. You might feel that sometimes, for example in the third movement, "nothing is really happening", but what actually is happening is that the passage of time is being "coloured" by something which thus colours the memory or what came before and the anticipation of what's to come next. I find all this really fascinating although I don't really have the words to describe my thoughts accurately. I should say that actually no.2 is probably the Mahler symphony I listen to and/or think about least often, but this is probably more to do with issues like the orchestral sound not yet having achieved the subtlety and individuality that it does in subsequent works.

Nicely put, though I really enjoy listening to the way Mahler's orchestration and structural approach developed. I find I go back to the original versions of works such as 'Titan' and Das Klagende Lied quite often. The roughness of the early versions has its own attraction, for me.

[Barbirollians]

I have only just listened to it on BBC Sounds - I thought it was a terrific performance - I could hear the organ perfectly clearly on Sonos .Louise Alder and Dame Sarah Connolly were very fine . It was streets ahead of the Stenz CBSO performance conducting wise

[Petrushka]

I have only just listened to it on BBC Sounds - I thought it was a terrific performance - I could hear the organ perfectly clearly on Sonos .Louise Alder and Dame Sarah Connolly were very fine . It was streets ahead of the Stenz CBSO performance conducting wise

I was in the hall (in H stalls) and, yes, it was indeed a terrific performance. The brass, in particular, covered themselves in glory. The organ was perfectly clear, though not overwhelming as I'd hoped, but was certainly there. A mention is made above of the chorus entry being too loud but not sure what on earth this means because the initial chorus entry was very quiet, almost to the point of inaudibility.

No-one pulls off the entry of the organ like Klaus Tennstedt in his live 1989 RFH performance. According to the notes for the CD issue, Tennstedt requested the organist, Malcolm Hicks, to play as loud as possible. I was present at that performance and will never forget being pinned to my seat by the awesome force of the organ. It comes across splendidly on the recording.

[cloughie]

A lot of scholars liken the arc of Tristan , Die Meistersinger , Die Walküre , Siegfried and Gotterdamerung to gigantic symphonies . One or two even think the Ring a gigantic symphony - maybe going too far . A more sustainable position is Wagner’s mastery of motivic development, tonality and transition. I think he is a greater “ symphonist” than Mahler ( and I reckon Gustav might well have agreed with me ). Although I’ve been bored in Wagner I always feel the music is going somewhere - sometimes with Mahler - particularly in those fiddly note- spinning inner movements I just wonder where we are headed.

I guess you could be right about relative symphonic writing ability of the two composers - I have often lamented the fact that I would have sacrificed a Wagner opera or two for a handful of mature Wagner symphonies.

[PhilipT]

I was in the hall (in H stalls) and, yes, it was indeed a terrific performance. The brass, in particular, covered themselves in glory. The organ was perfectly clear, though not overwhelming as I'd hoped, but was certainly there. A mention is made above of the chorus entry being too loud but not sure what on earth this means because the initial chorus entry was very quiet, almost to the point of inaudibility.

I'm with you on all points. I queued from silly o'clock to get a place near the middle of the second row of the Arena. Sarah Connolly was superb; where I was I had a clear view of the organ stops and rarely have I seen so many out. Other points that come to mind are: the interesting placements of the off-stage instruments; that only in the fifth movement did Rattle succumb to the temptation to go into his power-driven mode; and that we really, really could have done with a longer silence before the applause set in. Oh, and the front few rows of the Arena are out-of-practice at orchestrated stamping. (I couldn't - my feet were giving me hell. I think I made a bad choice of footwear; does anyone have any advice on insoles for standing for long periods?) I was glad to have the opportunity to congratulate some of the chorus as they stood waiting for their coaches before I rejoined the queue for the Late Night Prom.

If anyone from the RAH is reading this: Well done for moving the Returns queue outside to relieve the congestion in the shop - good move, that. Please could the caterers stock up on extra sandwiches on popular double-header nights? I'll refrain from commenting here about the flakiness of the website - the rumours are it crashed at least twice - but a big thank-you to the young lady in the Box Office who printed me real live paper tickets for both Proms.

[Maclintick]

While the music is taking place one can be sufficiently involved in it to "believe" in it; if, during a performance, you start thinking to yourself "wait a minute, this is all mumbo-jumbo" then either the composer or the performer or the listener or some combination of these is not sufficiently engaged in what they're doing. As for the "meandering" central movements, a structure where the outer movements provide a frame and context for more divergent inner components is something Mahler clearly found to be a sort of shape with enough potential to be repeatedly explored, as in nos. 2, 3, 7, 9 and 10 most obviously, and others to a less developed or more subtle extent. In no.2, the onward pressure and momentum of the outer movements contrasts with the more static "scenes" of the inner ones, in a way that I would say creates an overall sense of balance even in such an extended and diverse structure. You might feel that sometimes, for example in the third movement, "nothing is really happening", but what actually is happening is that the passage of time is being "coloured" by something which thus colours the memory or what came before and the anticipation of what's to come next. I find all this really fascinating although I don't really have the words to describe my thoughts accurately. I should say that actually no.2 is probably the Mahler symphony I listen to and/or think about least often, but this is probably more to do with issues like the orchestral sound not yet having achieved the subtlety and individuality that it does in subsequent works.

Listening to this 3rd movement, & leaving aside its pictorial associations with St Anthony's piscatorial sermon, I'm reminded that Richard Strauss's regard for GM's orchestral mastery in this symphony was such that he claimed to leave the score open on his desk, and that the lyrical interlude featuring trumpets and harp "sehr ausdrucksvoll gesangen" -- trio-like in spirit if not exactly a trio -- is vocalised in Berio's Sinfonia. Far from being "meandering", its kaleidoscopically shifting colours & meticulously-notated variations of pace within that basic 3/8 provide a perfectly-realised pivot between the first movement and the finale, at approximately the halfway point in the symphony. The passage from just after fig.49 Unmerklich Drägend to the end of the movement is masterly in both conception and execution.

[RichardB]

Far from being "meandering", its kaleidoscopically shifting colours & meticulously-notated variations of pace within that basic 3/8 provide a perfectly-realised pivot between the first movement and the finale, at approximately the halfway point in the symphony. The passage from just after fig.49 Unmerklich Drägend to the end of the movement is masterly in both conception and execution.

I agree completely! It wasn't me complaining about their meanderingness.

[Maclintick]

I know, RB. I italicised "meandering" to reflect your identically-italicised reference, and to point out my own disagreement with the view that this movement meanders. I see it as intrinsically purposeful in the ways I've mentioned, & am in complete agreement with your post.

[Lordgeous]

I was in the hall (in H stalls) and, yes, it was indeed a terrific performance. The brass, in particular, covered themselves in glory. The organ was perfectly clear, though not overwhelming as I'd hoped, but was certainly there. A mention is made above of the chorus entry being too loud but not sure what on earth this means because the initial chorus entry was very quiet, almost to the point of inaudibility.

No-one pulls off the entry of the organ like Klaus Tennstedt in his live 1989 RFH performance. According to the notes for the CD issue, Tennstedt requested the organist, Malcolm Hicks, to play as loud as possible. I was present at that performance and will never forget being pinned to my seat by the awesome force of the organ. It comes across splendidly on the recording.

The live Tennstedt recording is awsome - lucky you to have been there. Top of my Mahler 2 list.

I said the choir, on the broadcast, certainly wasn't quiet No doubt they were singing quietly but BBC engineers must have pushed them up! Grrrr! And the organ should have been HUGE. Too polite IMHO.

[Keraulophone]

I was in the hall (in H stalls) and, yes, it was indeed a terrific performance. The brass, in particular, covered themselves in glory. The organ was perfectly clear, though not overwhelming as I'd hoped, but was certainly there. A mention is made above of the chorus entry being too loud but not sure what on earth this means because the initial chorus entry was very quiet, almost to the point of inaudibility.

Agree with all this, especially the brass - I didn't hear one cracked note (well, maybe there was just the one) in eighty minutes. As for that stupendous percussion crescendo to fortissimo possibile; it could have been the loudest noise I've ever heard in the RAH.

Being around 3000th in the Prom booking queue, although we didn't get the seats requested, the clarity of soft passages, the spatial effects of the brass groups in the gallery and the goose-pimple impact at the end reached the Circle seats with no problem at all. And the view was excellent: