Prom 33: Holst’s The Planets (10.08.22)

[Ein Heldenleben]

They’ve just played a snatch of Feldman’s Rothko Chapel in the interval break. I think quite a few of the new Proms commission composers over the last week could learn a lot from that piece . You don’t need a lot of notes to make an impact .

[edashtav]

T&V / D&T just completed. It was OK, everything in place, but IMHO, lacking a bit in Richard Strauss-ian swagger. It reminded me of the reaction in the other thread on RW's appointment to the BBC SSO.

Ed noted, as Andrew McGregor had pointed out, the connection to the Richard Strauss Vier letzte Lieder from yesterday, in terms of programming. David Pickard may have just a little bit to do with that, given all the brickbats that he gets from so many sides for his programming choices .

PS: From just the one listen to Matthew Kaner's Pearl, it sounds very 'safe' and audience-friendly. Full marks to Roderick Williams for his very fine delivery of the text, though (but then that's par for the course for him).

My first reaction to Kaner’s Jewel accorded with yours: ‘safe’ , and ‘sound’, and yet another A+ to Roddy. I’ll try to Listen Again but it did occur to me that Kaner may have scored better than his teacher, JA.

[edashtav]

They’ve just played a snatch of Feldman’s Rothko Chapel in the interval break. I think quite a few of the new Proms commission composers over the last week could learn a lot from that piece . You don’t need a lot of notes to make an impact .

Yes, indeed!

(Who said, “A composer’s best friend is his rubber”?
As an aside, I recall someone wrote of the American song-writer, Jerome Kern who attempted to compose a song a day, that his final acid test was to tap out the rhythm of a song’s tune using only the eraser end of his pencil.)

[rauschwerk]

Heard from a good seat in the stalls, Kaner's piece didn't make a great impression on me. But then such a largely slow and quiet piece hardly could in that vast space. My hearing loss didn't help, naturally. I'll have to give it a try on BBC Sounds.

I very much enjoyed the Holst, so familiar yet never boring. The Strauss I enjoyed almost as much, even though it's not my favourite piece of his.

[Bertilak]

Am I alone in wishing that Ryan had left his vibrato at home? The orchestration for Pearl was shimmeringly gorgeous and the words were well wrought, (I'm a huge fan of the Pearl poet!), but I felt that a purer voice would have made more musical sense. I really did have to force myself to listen.

[Bertilak]

I meant Roderick of course!

[silvestrione]

Am I alone in wishing that Ryan had left his vibrato at home? The orchestration for Pearl was shimmeringly gorgeous and the words were well wrought, (I'm a huge fan of the Pearl poet!), but I felt that a purer voice would have made more musical sense. I really did have to force myself to listen.

So am I, but this was Simon Armitage, or at least his version! Philip Gross in his interval response talked, at first, as if it was set in the Middle English, with his view of an 'out of this world' theme for this concert, saying it was in a 'lost' form of English, which did not become our English...made me wish Kaner had set the original...

It reminded me strongly of Britten's Curlew River, which I used to think a masterpiece, but now I'm put off by the all-male thing... But as with Feldman and Anderson in the other thread, perhaps Kaner could learn from Britten about economy and concision.

Welcome, Bertilak, by the way!

[Ein Heldenleben]

So am I, but this was Simon Armitage, or at least his version! Philip Gross in his interval response talked, at first, as if it was set in the Middle English, with his view of an 'out of this world' theme for this concert, saying it was in a 'lost' form of English, which did not become our English...made me wish Kaner had set the original...

It reminded me strongly of Britten's Curlew River, which I used to think a masterpiece, but now I'm put off by the all-male thing... But as with Feldman and Anderson in the other thread, perhaps Kaner could learn from Britten about economy and concision.

Welcome, Bertilak, by the way!

I couldn’t believe it when Philip Gross said that about Middle English being a “lost” form of English. It’s not as clear cut as that . Our English is directly descended from it .You don’t have to know much Middle English to follow the poem - though you can get caught out by words that have changed meaning . If he’d said Anglo Saxon he might have been closer to the truth.

[silvestrione]

I couldn’t believe it when Philip Gross said that about Middle English being a “lost” form of English. It’s not as clear cut as that . Our English is directly descended from it .You don’t have to know much Middle English to follow the poem - though you can get caught out by words that have changed meaning . If he’d said Anglo Saxon he might have been closer to the truth.

That's arguable, surely: our English is 'directly' descended from Chaucer's, that 'dialect', rather than that of the more northern 'Gawain poet'? But this is rather off thread!

[Andrew]

I listened to this Prom live and thought the Strauss was superb! I've always liked this composer and the Planets (Holst) was very good too, although was a more demanding piece to listen to. The Kaner world premier didn't really "do it" for me, but I suspect I need to learn more about contemporary composers before criticising too much!

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's arguable, surely: our English is 'directly' descended from Chaucer's, that 'dialect', rather than that of the more northern 'Gawain poet'? But this is rather off thread!

It’s possibly a West Midlands dialect.If you can pick your way through Chaucer it honestly shouldn’t present a problem. Implying it’s some radically different dead language just isn’t right l.

[Bertilak]

That's arguable, surely: our English is 'directly' descended from Chaucer's, that 'dialect', rather than that of the more northern 'Gawain poet'? But this is rather off thread!

I had the fortune to have grown up in the North Staffordshire mining villages and the dialect I was used to meant that the Tolkien editions of Gawain and Pearl were fairly accessible. Alan Garner, another local lad said much the same. I think one of the reasons that SGGK and Pearl have never been given their true value is a little bit to do with the weight of Southern culture. Birtwhistle's Gawain rejoiced in the Northern landscape.

[Bertilak]

So am I, but this was Simon Armitage, or at least his version! Philip Gross in his interval response talked, at first, as if it was set in the Middle English, with his view of an 'out of this world' theme for this concert, saying it was in a 'lost' form of English, which did not become our English...made me wish Kaner had set the original...

It reminded me strongly of Britten's Curlew River, which I used to think a masterpiece, but now I'm put off by the all-male thing... But as with Feldman and Anderson in the other thread, perhaps Kaner could learn from Britten about economy and concision.

Welcome, Bertilak, by the way!

. Thank you.

[Pulcinella]

Times review (four stars) here:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-so-wigglesworth-review-proms-royal-albert-hall-london-7sqwt3fph?shareToken=e3d4b5644fb991ab220ada196f162f62

[Master Jacques]

It reminded me strongly of Britten's Curlew River, which I used to think a masterpiece, but now I'm put off by the all-male thing... But as with Feldman and Anderson in the other thread, perhaps Kaner could learn from Britten about economy and concision.

Once a masterpiece, always a masterpiece? Britten's use of Japanese Noh casting, in setting a Japanese Noh play, is surely a musical masterstroke - as well as a precise gesture to critique USA/UK's prevalent TV-realist cultural imperialism towards a very different culture. The Madwoman is no leering drag act.

Are you equally put off by Billy Budd? Both use the soprano voice, of course - Curlew River to stunning effect, in reserving it for the work's climax. That's where the economy and concision you rightly praise really draws blood.