Prom 16: Sea Sketches with Andrew Manze and BBC NOW (27.07.22)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This was a very fine concert indeed. Bishop's Rock was very much Waltonesque, and none the worse for that. However, I agree that the BBC's sound balance was poor in the Sea Symphony. It isn't an easy work to reduce to pass through a couple of loudspeakers, and to do so in a live concert is even more problematic, but the BBC has managed to handle large choral works most effectively over the years, including many memorable Proms live broadcasts. Having a couple of soloists sounding as loud as a choir of 250 is frankly amateurish. I realise that the soloists are in front of the orchestra, but the sound balance is so excessively manipulated that I imagine Arthur Haddy of Decca Phase 4 fame being in control of the sliders. Not too keen on the soprano's excessive vibrato though.

[Nick Armstrong]

Having a couple of soloists sounding as loud as a choir of 250 is frankly amateurish.

The aural equivalent of the camera lens up the nostril to which we shall no doubt be treated during the television broadcast tomorrow evening…

I’ll try and post some detailed comments, having attended the concert, when I get the opportunity.

[Historian]

Very much my impression too. Didn't really sound like a choir of 250 in the Sea Symphony.

Glad the choruses made a great impression in the hall. Felt the same about the recorded balance, with the choir lacking presence on the radio.

In fairness, I should add that I am usually disappointed with the balance of choral concerts. This may be because I am so used to singing in a symphony chorus that anything else just doesn't really do it for me.

[cloughie]

Glad the choruses made a great impression in the hall. Felt the same about the recorded balance, with the choir lacking presence on the radio.

In fairness, I should add that I am usually disappointed with the balance of choral concerts. This may be because I am so used to singing in a symphony chorus that anything else just doesn't really do it for me.

…and no doubt you hear it from a different standpoint!

[Historian]

…and no doubt you hear it from a different standpoint!

Yes, that makes the point better: after being in the midst of the chorus actually singing, anything else will always be second-best. Thank you.

[oddoneout]

Yes, that makes the point better: after being in the midst of the chorus actually singing, anything else will always be second-best. Thank you.

I agree that singing in a work is not the same as listening to it - active versus passive if you will. However I've never seen it as second-best, just different. There are times listening to favourite pieces when I itch to be in there "doing it", but I feel it's also good to hear the whole as the composer intended.

[crb11]

Yes, that makes the point better: after being in the midst of the chorus actually singing, anything else will always be second-best. Thank you.

I would disagree with this. There's something visceral about being in the middle of the chorus (or equivalently an orchestra) which I wouldn't want to miss, but the balance between the parts is so imbalanced that it's often like hearing a different piece, and the one the composer and conductor intended is preferable. I would definitely agree that frequently something gets lost between concert hall and radio/recording though.

[Pulcinella]

Rebecca Franks in The Times:

...conductor tended towards understatement.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-national-orchestra-of-wales-manze-at-the-proms-2022-63dhjcpg2?shareToken=3adbd49217cb676dddbf79c067862a77

[Serial_Apologist]

Rebecca Franks in The Times:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...bf79c067862a77

As a conductor you can't afford to under-deliver on The Sea Symphony, or else you end up courting the charge which otherwise wise voices on this forum have made of the musical language of the work being "too polite", and in no way comparable to Debussy's La mer, whose influence is present in the third movement.

[Nick Armstrong]

Glad the choruses made a great impression in the hall. Felt the same about the recorded balance, with the choir lacking presence on the radio.

In fairness, I should add that I am usually disappointed with the balance of choral concerts. This may be because I am so used to singing in a symphony chorus that anything else just doesn't really do it for me.

I wondered about a similar effect for me - this was my first orchestral (& choral) concert in the audience for more than 2 years - but I’ve had a year of symphonic rehearsals and performances from the aural standpoint of 1st trombone - a trumpet or 3 to the right and a couple of ‘bones and a tuba to the left…

Perhaps inevitably then, even from pretty optimal stalls seats, the opening of the Sea Symphony lacked ‘oooomph’ for me. Manze seemed to build to some big climaxes, rather than plunging straight in with a big splash. What impressed me most about hearing this piece live for the first time were the detailed layers of the quieter bits rather than the impact of the loud bits (though for the latter part of the work, there seemed to be a low-volume organ cipher note audible during softer passages - fortunately a reasonably compatible note but a wee bit distracting: did anyone else hear it?). Talking of the organ, I wanted more of the very low sounds in the ‘vast Rondure’ section - what an opportunity to give some cosmic low frequency vibrations to underpin it all - but nothing: the organ was practically inaudible I enjoyed the expressivity and tone of the baritone soloist, and the soprano was ok in the hall (though I did think to myself that I bet her voice isn’t going to go over the radio microphones particularly pleasantly).

So it was a compelling performance but one which left me tingle-free… which was a slight disappointment, to be honest.

The Carwithen piece was engaging and ear-catching, the Williams ‘sketches’ inoffensive….

[mrbouffant]

... there seemed to be a low-volume organ cipher note audible during softer passages ...

Yes we noticed this too. Thankfully it was in the right key and had disappeared later by the time the organist had knocked out a few more passages.
Did you notice the early entry from one of the Sops?
Small things that add to the memory of a live performance!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Having now watched the TV transmission, I confess I found both soloists wanting in different ways. The baritone had a decent voice, but from time to time swooped into notes like a pop singer, but he seemed to settle down in the second movement: On the Beach at Night Alone. The soprano's excessive wobble was not "natural" vibrato from the diaphragm; it was deliberately cultured by obvious mouth movement.

[Simon B]

...even from pretty optimal stalls seats, the opening of the Sea Symphony lacked ‘oooomph’ for me. Manze seemed to build to some big climaxes, rather than plunging straight in with a big splash...

Likewise, also from usually optimal stalls seats. The opening seemed a tad brisk and perfunctory to me. Oramo summoned an opening statement of much greater sweep and grandeur on the 2013 first night. Compare the first 3 minutes of Oramo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kR3FzJ1Hh4 with Manze https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5HcbUZezeQ.

On both occasions the opening statement set the tone for the rest of the performance. Manze tending towards slightly scholarly where Oramo mostly reached for drama, grandeur and mystery. At the other end of the piece, compare the massive climax of Sail Forth from 59:13 in Manze and 1:04:13 in Oramo. The former just kind of falls off the end where the latter is the real thing IMV.

The BBCNOW sounded a bit thin to me on the whole. Not enough weight, not enough organ pedal point either. However, this is difficult to judge in the weird acoustics of the RAH as moving three seats to the left can give very different perception. That said, observing the percussion revealed that they were playing everything for colour rather than impact for other than a very few entries. More weight requires more motion. Manze's view, presumably.

While the chorus was not as massive as for Oramo, there was plenty of disciplined and focussed sound despite how it apparently came across on the broadcast.

It got better as it went on and (as always for me), the closing section from "Oh Thou Transcendent" forward was the most compelling.

Ultimately, it didn't give me any of the tingle factor that memorable Oramo perf did, though that is clearly just personal reaction. It's also biased in that, fine Baritone though Jacques Imbrailo is, he's not Roderick Williams who I find uniquely compelling in this work among many others. There's something about his stage presence and bearing that has repeatedly drawn me in in a way that very few singers can.

So, in summary: Good, but no cigar.

Meanwhile, Manze's RVW 5 with the BBCSSO in the 2012 Proms was one of the most remarkable performances of anything I've ever heard. Horses for courses?

[Dave2002]

Meanwhile, Manze's RVW 5 with the BBCSSO in the 2012 Proms was one of the most remarkable performances of anything I've ever heard. Horses for courses?

I had to check - yes we went to the 2012 RVW Symphony fest. Excellent.

On a good day Manze is excellent. You were at both performances of RVW 1 (Manze's and Oramo's) I guess, whereas we were at neither. Now I wish I'd been able to attend - but these days it's a lot harder. Also we are stilll wary of Covid, and maybe that explains something about seats and ticket sales.

It's difficult to get a good impression from the YT videos - which I suspect in both cases are a pale imitation of what things were like in the hall. Based on the YT videos Manze's performance might have been faster overall, taking several minutes less than Oramo in 2013. Yet this is not clear at the very start which is spacious - though with some spontaneous quickening in places. The organ is more prominent in the more recent recorded performance.

Watching these has made me feel that I would like to come to some Proms this year, but health [precautionary in my case] and other factors [distance and cost] mitigate against this.

Is Manze's Prom on iPlayer [better video quality hopefully than YT]?

[Simon B]

You were at both performances of RVW 1 (Manze's and Oramo's) I guess...

Yes. Now I come to think of it I also went to Liverpool when Manze did the Sea Symphony there a few years ago and my reaction was similar. As objective reviewing (if such a thing exists) is beyond me, this is mere personal reaction rather than insight of course...

Is Manze's Prom on iPlayer [better video quality hopefully than YT]?

Yes, try here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...s-sea-symphony

On a good day Manze is excellent.

Agreed. Having heard him live in all the RVW symphonies + Job variously with the BBCSSO, RLPO and LPO he's the leading RVW interpreter of recent years IMV. For this listener, the one exception (and it is very different to the rest of the symphonies, quite apart from the obvious fact of being very much a choral work) is perhaps the Sea Symphony...

On the subject of attendances - for this one it was about 40-50%. That seems to be concerningly common this season. Reasons likely include the considerations you mention.