Prom 6: Vaughan Williams and Tippett – Full Fourths (19.07.22)

[Master Jacques]

I wonder what their [Schott's] hire fees are, or do orchestras have their own copies? Mine cost £5 in 1982.

It will be "performance materials for hire only", at a price undisclosed, for fear of bringing on strokes and heart failure!

Talking of Tippett scores, I can't be the only person who's the proud possessor of that old RCA box, containing both the LP of the premiere recording of The Vision of Saint Augustine (John Shirley-Quirk, LSO, c. Tippett) and a lovely full score of same?

[Pulcinella]

It will be "performance materials for hire only", at a price undisclosed, for fear of bringing on strokes and heart failure!

Talking of Tippett scores, I can't be the only person who's the proud possessor of that old RCA box, containing both the LP of the premiere recording of The Vision of Saint Augustine (John Shirley-Quirk, LSO, c. Tippett) and a lovely full score of same?

I had that, and Tippett signed the score for me, which I kept when I sold the LP.
I don't think he was aware at the time that RCA were including the score.

PS: Shame that the Fantasia on a theme of Handel filler hasn't yet been issued on CD afaik, but at least Steven Osborne has since recorded the work for Hyperion.
And of course there's the Howard Shelley/Bournemouth SO/Hickox version too, that I'd forgotten about.

PPS: I wonder if the study score has now been 'typeset' (or whatever is the appropriate word); my copy (Edition 11395) is of the 'hand-written' look variety.

[jonfan]

If a Publican were to pour such a short measure into a pint glass, he might be prosecuted, but the BBC short-changed ticket holders for this concert and it will get away, Scot free. Fortunately, small can mean more and this great work received a wonderful interpretation from Sir Andrew and fine playing from the BBC PO. To add to the rich admixture that Tippett includes in his scores, I think it was a Gramophone reviewer who wrote that no 20th century composers can touch Tippett or Messaien when it comes to invoking joy and ecstasy.. In Sir Michael’s case , he seems to me to react with awe, joy and wonder at the act of Creation. Pure bliss!

Well said. A good thing to have the voice on stage rather than some prerecorded effect. Terrific performances of both symphonies.

[Boilk]

PPS: I wonder if the study score has now been 'typeset' (or whatever is the appropriate word); my copy (Edition 11395) is of the 'hand-written' look variety.

I also have that 'handwritten' score of Sym #4, and was wondering exactly the same thing. Would be easy to typeset #4 with software of the last two decades. I always wondered why a much bigger piece like Sym #3 was typeset from the outset but #4 was handwritten.

[Simon Biazeck]

A stunning account of the Tippett symphony. Revelatory, and I am in bits. Fascinating to hear Mival and Bowen. I recall reading that Bowen was not keen on the breathing - thought it shouldn't be emphasised. It's almost unbearably moving and the rendition here was the best I have heard.

[Alison]

£27.30 at Presto.

Sorry got mine for about £22.50 middle of June, Amazon Market Place.

Such are the vagaries of classical world market forces.

[Master Jacques]

PS: Shame that the Fantasia on a theme of Handel filler hasn't yet been issued on CD afaik, but at least Steven Osborne has since recorded the work for Hyperion. And of course there's the Howard Shelley/Bournemouth SO/Hickox version too, that I'd forgotten about.

That recording of the Fantasia ((with Margaret Kitchin) seemed most peculiarly recorded to me, the piano oppressively close-miked and almost seeming to circle around at the start before settling itself mid-speakers. Doubtless a trick of perception, but most alarming. Perhaps that's why - unlike the main item on the LP - it was never re-released on CD.

[Pulcinella]

That recording of the Fantasia ((with Margaret Kitchin) seemed most peculiarly recorded to me, the piano oppressively close-miked and almost seeming to circle around at the start before settling itself mid-speakers. Doubtless a trick of perception, but most alarming. Perhaps that's why - unlike the main item on the LP - it was never re-released on CD.

That may well be the case: ages since I heard it, of course, but I remember liking the piece then and having a long wait until a CD recording came along.
I see that it is dedicated to Phyllis Sellick, who gave the first performance with the LSO under Walter Goehr on 7 March 1942, Wigmore Hall.

[RichardB]

As RichardB says, the Tippett Foundation was set up from the sale of MT's manuscripts. The problem with the royalties is the one to which I referred: hugely in debt, near the end of his life, he sold the rights to his works to Schott (his main publishers) in exchange for being baled out. So they get the royalties now, and the Foundation doesn't. This and much more is made clear in Oliver Soden's superb biographical study of the composer, which I heartily recommend.

So do I.

There was a time when music publishers would be active in promoting the work of the composers they represented, but these days they mostly don't have the resources to do so, and the resulting vacuum is to a great extent occupied by "curators" whose decisions are much more likely to be based on what happens to be fashionable at a given moment rather than on the kind of commitment to particular creative artists that publishers used to have.

My comment on performance royalties and the Tippett Foundation was based on a post dated March 2022 on that organisation's website: "The Trustees of the Foundation have decided that we will not be able to offer any grants in 2022. This is because receipts from Tippett royalties, on which the Foundation depends, have decreased significantly due to the loss of performances during the Covid pandemic. The Trustees recognise and very much regret the disappointment this news may cause to potential applicants. The situation will be reviewed during the year alongside future policy, and a further announcement will be made later in 2022." So the Foundation still does receive some proportion of royalties from MT performances, it seems.

[Bryn]

That recording of the Fantasia ((with Margaret Kitchin) seemed most peculiarly recorded to me, the piano oppressively close-miked and almost seeming to circle around at the start before settling itself mid-speakers. Doubtless a trick of perception, but most alarming. Perhaps that's why - unlike the main item on the LP - it was never re-released on CD.

https://www.therecordalbum.com/product/michael-tippett-london-symphony-orchestra-and-london-symphony-chorus-john-shirley-quirk-margaret-kitchin-the-vision-of-st-augustine-fantasia-on-a-theme-of-handel-lp/

[Pulcinella]

https://www.therecordalbum.com/produ...-of-handel-lp/

Worth it for the score alone, though sadly The Vision is one of a fair few Tippett works I just can't get to grips with. I've even got the London Sinfonietta/Atherton recording from their 80th Birthday tribute concert on 20 January 1985 too, and that hasn't helped either.

[Master Jacques]

That may well be the case: ages since I heard it, of course, but I remember liking the piece then and having a long wait until a CD recording came along.
I see that it is dedicated to Phyllis Sellick, who gave the first performance with the LSO under Walter Goehr on 7 March 1942, Wigmore Hall.

A very likeable piece indeed. When I first heard it (on the LP) it sent me back (1) to the original Handel piece, which is utterly extraordinary; and (2) to the Handel-obsessed Samuel Butler, from reading whose Erewhon Tippett went to the theme, the prelude to the first of Handel's Trois Leçons.

(From Erehwon)"The great chords, which are like the music moaned by the statues ... One feels them in the diaphragm—they are, as it were, the groaning and labouring of all creation travailing together until now."

I've been a big Butler fan ever since, The Way of All Flesh as much as Erewhon, and have Tippett's Handel Fantasia to thank for it!

[Pulcinella]

A very likeable piece indeed. When I first heard it (on the LP) it sent me back (1) to the original Handel piece, which is utterly extraordinary; and (2) to the Handel-obsessed Samuel Butler, from reading whose Erewhon Tippett went to the theme, the prelude to the first of Handel's Trois Leçons.

(From Erehwon)"The great chords, which are like the music moaned by the statues ... One feels them in the diaphragm—they are, as it were, the groaning and labouring of all creation travailing together until now."

I've been a big Butler fan ever since, The Way of All Flesh as much as Erewhon, and have Tippett's Handel Fantasia to thank for it!

Apologies for keeping this thread off topic, but what is the Handel piece?
The only reference I can find is to the Prelude of a harpsichord suite in B flat, but none of the eight 'Suites pour clavecin' that I have (Kenneth Gilbert) is in B flat.


PS: It must be this one, HWV434:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/works/24920--handel-keyboard-suite-hwv-434-in-b-flat-major/browse

I'll see if I can stream it.

[cloughie]

I switch on the Prom repeat this afternoon, part way through the 2nd Movt of the RvW4 - The movement had a strangely Brucknerian sound to it - something I had never considered before in RVW's music!

[RichardB]

I also have that 'handwritten' score of Sym #4, and was wondering exactly the same thing. Would be easy to typeset #4 with software of the last two decades. I always wondered why a much bigger piece like Sym #3 was typeset from the outset but #4 was handwritten.

In the intervening time, the increasing use and quality of photocopiers had made it much more economical to have orchestral scores prepared by a good copyist by hand than having them typeset the expensive old way.