Prom 6: Vaughan Williams and Tippett – Full Fourths (19.07.22)

[Ein Heldenleben]

100% agreed. Sir Andrew & the BBCPO the real deal tonight. I'm sure he's right to employ a "live" singer to provide the breathing effects in Tippett 4. Originally MT envisaged a synthesised sound, but this hasn't convinced me on the admittedly rare occasions I've heard it done this way. Congratulations to the BBCPO horns, who were magnificent in this hugely challenging & miraculously kaleidoscopic work.

Good that the live breather got a credit and fascinating to hear that Tippetts influences stretched from Bruckner through Beckett to Jane Birkin - I don’t suppose those names get linked much
Those horns - no praise high enough .

[DoctorT]

Sir Andrew’s British Line box is an outstanding bargain at little over £20 if you’ve never considered it. Great engineering on these discs.

Thanks for the recommendation Alison: looks enticing. Just where is it available for £20ish?

[Bryn]

Thanks for the recommendation Alison: looks enticing. Just where is it available for £20ish?

£32 is the best I have found, so far.

[LHC]

£32 is the best I have found, so far.

£27.30 at Presto.

[edashtav]

100% agreed. Sir Andrew & the BBCPO the real deal tonight. I'm sure he's right to employ a "live" singer to provide the breathing effects in Tippett 4. Originally MT envisaged a synthesised sound, but this hasn't convinced me on the admittedly rare occasions I've heard it done this way. Congratulations to the BBCPO horns, who were magnificent in this hugely challenging & miraculously kaleidoscopic work.

If a Publican were to pour such a short measure into a pint glass, he might be prosecuted, but the BBC short-changed ticket holders for this concert and it will get away, Scot free. Fortunately, small can mean more and this great work received a wonderful interpretation from Sir Andrew and fine playing from the BBC PO. To add to the rich admixture that Tippett includes in his scores, I think it was a Gramophone reviewer who wrote that no 20th century composers can touch Tippett or Messaien when it comes to invoking joy and ecstasy.. In Sir Michael’s case , he seems to me to react with awe, joy and wonder at the act of Creation. Pure bliss!

[Master Jacques]

If a Publican were to pour such a short measure into pint glass, he might be prosecuted, but the BBC short-changed ticket holders for this concert and it will get away, Scot free. Fortunately, small can mean more and this great work received a wonderful interpretation from Sir Andrew and fine playing from the BBC PO. To add to the rich admixture that Tippett includes in his scores, I think it was a Gramophone reviewer who wrote that no 20th century composers can touch Tippett or Messaien when it comes to invoking joy and ecstasy.. In Sir Michael’s case , he seems to me to react with awe, joy and wonder at the act of Creation. Pure bliss!

It certainly brings me joy and ecstasy to read such insightful words about this superlative symphony, and Tippett's work generally. His music ought to be available on the National Health, as a cure-all tonic. I've been restudying the 3rd Symphony recently, and find it incredible that this magnificent work has hardly been played since the composer's death: due to precarious finances at the end of his life, there's no "Tippett Trust" to make sure that his music continues to be promoted in the way it should. It's (another) national scandal.

[Bryn]

£27.30 at Presto.

"This item is currently out of stock at the UK distributor. You may order it now but please be aware that it may be six weeks or more before it can be despatched."

[DracoM]

Interesting programming by BBC, but got to say I thought the Tippett paled into insignificance against the RVW.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It certainly brings me joy and ecstasy to read such insightful words about this superlative symphony, and Tippett's work generally. His music ought to be available on the National Health, as a cure-all tonic. I've been restudying the 3rd Symphony recently, and find it incredible that this magnificent work has hardly been played since the composer's death: due to precarious finances at the end of his life, there's no "Tippett Trust" to make sure that his music continues to be promoted in the way it should. It's (another) national scandal.

The interval interviewee William Mival reminded us that at the time of writing Tippett was considered the greatest living composer. The commission for the fourth was from Solti and the CSO - one of the worlds great orchestras. Since then , William Mival thought his stock has fallen. He didn’t elaborate much but I wonder whether his kind of sixties / seventies eclecticism is now very unfashionable . The visionary nature of his work drawing in myth and mysticism doesn’t square with our tech led , digital , mechanistic world. Pity because that English visionary tradition took in figures like Ralph Vaughan Williams , Bunyan , Blake , Lawrence , Palmer etc. We need a few visionaries. Tippett’s music is a little bit crazy but it works.
It struck me as appropriate that it was performed on the hottest day in recorded British history . We’ve treated the planet like a machine rather than a living breathing thing and now we are paying the price.

[Keraulophone]

Total grip and focus from the first to last note of the RVW...
What a difference a conductor makes ( and I never thought I’d say that).

Then let's put Sir Andrew in front of the Sinfonia of London 'super-orchestra'.

(I'm assuming we're allowed hypotheticals on here )

[RichardB]

there's no "Tippett Trust" to make sure that his music continues to be promoted in the way it should.

There is a Tippett Foundation, set up by the composer from sales of manuscript scores, which exists to support "young musicians and composers, new music and music education initiatives" (from which I've benefited in the somewhat distant past), although it made no grants last year owing to there being insufficient performances of Tippett's work to generate the necessary royalties. A sense of idealism about human potential and a vision that doesn't shy away from confronting deep issues head-on are both seemingly unfashionable at a time and place where (for example) the new operas that get most attention deal with matters like sex scandals in the British aristocracy or the downfall of a gold-digging model.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There is a Tippett Foundation, set up by the composer from sales of manuscript scores, which exists to support "young musicians and composers, new music and music education initiatives" (from which I've benefited in the somewhat distant past), although it made no grants last year owing to there being insufficient performances of Tippett's work to generate the necessary royalties. A sense of idealism about human potential and a vision that doesn't shy away from confronting deep issues head-on are both seemingly unfashionable at a time and place where (for example) the new operas that get most attention deal with matters like sex scandals in the British aristocracy or the downfall of a gold-digging model.

Yes you’ve nailed it. Although Tippett’s operas weren’t always successful they were never trivial. Incidentally I heard from a reasonably reliable source that in his centenary year Britten’s work generated £ 1,000,000 in royalties. I didn’t realise that Operas incur so-called “grand rights” - a larger slice of the box office accruing to the composer than in a symphony. I hope last nights fee might go toward supporting a young composer. There’s still a Vaughan Williams foundation which supports contemporary music composition isn’t there ?

[Master Jacques]

Yes you’ve nailed it. Although Tippett’s operas weren’t always successful they were never trivial. Incidentally I heard from a reasonably reliable source that in his centenary year Britten’s work generated £ 1,000,000 in royalties. I didn’t realise that Operas incur so-called “grand rights” - a larger slice of the box office accruing to the composer than in a symphony. I hope last nights fee might go toward supporting a young composer. There’s still a Vaughan Williams foundation which supports contemporary music composition isn’t there ?

There are now two VW trusts, the old one - set up after his death, with Ursula VW at the head - which as you say supports contemporary composers; and the new one, set up with Ursula's assets after her death, which has been doing astounding work promoting RVW's own work. The great thing is, they support live performances and subsidise modern editions of the scores to make his music available, rather than pouring it into recordings - through the RVW *Society*, a third (independent) body, does that. With brilliant results all round.

As RichardB says, the Tippett Foundation was set up from the sale of MT's manuscripts. The problem with the royalties is the one to which I referred: hugely in debt, near the end of his life, he sold the rights to his works to Schott (his main publishers) in exchange for being baled out. So they get the royalties now, and the Foundation doesn't. This and much more is made clear in Oliver Soden's superb biographical study of the composer, which I heartily recommend.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There are now two VW trusts, the old one - set up after his death, with Ursula VW at the head - which as you say supports contemporary composers; and the new one, set up with Ursula's assets after her death, which has been doing astounding work promoting RVW's own work. The great thing is, they support live performances and subsidise modern editions of the scores to make his music available, rather than pouring it into recordings - through the RVW *Society*, a third (independent) body, does that. With brilliant results all round.


As RichardB says, the Tippett Foundation was set up from the sale of MT's manuscripts. The problem with the royalties is the one to which I referred: hugely in debt, near the end of his life, he sold the rights to his works to Schott (his publishers) in exchange for being baled out. So they get the royalties now, and the Foundation doesn't. This and much more is made clear in Oliver Soden's superb biographical study of the composer, which I heartily recommend.

Thanks for the excellent explanation . Well let’s hope Schott’s stump up then….

[Pulcinella]

Thanks for the excellent explanation . Well let’s hope Schott’s stump up then….

The study score is currently on offer at Presto at £27.60 instead of £34.50.

https://www.prestomusic.com/sheet-music/works/51645--tippett-symphony-no-4/browse

I wonder what their [Schott's] hire fees are, or do orchestras have their own copies?

Mine cost £5 in 1982.