Prom 2: John Wilson conducts the Sinfonia of London (16.07.22)

[Pulcinella]

I find myself concurring with this. He is a great story, but the hype surrounding his recordings just leaves me nonplussed. Perhaps he is thought to be this Generations Simon Rattle, who will be a lodestar for younger audiences in the U.K. Rattle however imo justified the hype. Most of those Birmingham recordings have held up very well. Perhaps Wilson will make an Artistic Leap, and perhaps if he had a permanent position he might develop a rapport that would flourish over time

What reaction, if any, has there been to JW's Copland recordings (BBCPO, on Chandos) your side of the pond?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=Copland%20chandos%20orchestral%20wilson

[Dave Payn]

I think you're right there.

I sometimes get the impression (rightly or wrongly, probably the latter) that John Wilson resembles a gifted amateur* as a conductor, albeit a passionate and very hard-working one, while also a dedicated arranger and resuscitator of lost scores, who is able to call upon the cream of the orchestral crop to make recordings and give occasional concerts. The one I attended at the Proms a few years ago was not nearly as impressive as others of his I've watched on television. The late Hornspieler, sometime past of this parish, had no time for his stick-wagging.

I've listened carefully to several of his recent Sinfonia of London releases, recorded in brilliant Chandos sound, but I'm often left with a feeling of unfulfillment, and not only because one is ineviably recalling much-loved versions from yesteryear, eg Barbirolli in RVW and Elgar with the 'same' orchestra (!), but because a degree of inspiration seems to be missing. These hand-picked pros play almost too well for a conductor who doesn't wish to reveal his emotions, to look beyond the printed notes, or, rather, taint a composer's creation by interpreting the score through his own vision of what the composer might have meant - the complete opposite of someone like Bernstein, one might say. If the conductor has no such instinctive vision and is not prepared to take subjective risks, the results are likely to remain bland, however well played. Apologies to those who admire this conductor - all IMHO of course. There are many positives, not least the reconstruction of many lost Hollywood scores and seeing and hearing someone at the top of their game like Mike Lovatt blazing a solo from the trumpet section of the JWO.

From an interview by Stephen Moss for The Guardian in 2017:
'He puts the range of his repertoire down to his unusual background: working-class boy from Gateshead who fell in love with music (and Hollywood musicals in particular), taught himself to play the piano with the help of a musical mother, did A-level music at Newcastle College and formed his first orchestra at the age of 16. “I had a good school music teacher and a percussion teacher who took me under his wing,” he recalls in an accent that retains its Geordie lilt. “There was a lot of amateur music-making – brass bands, orchestras, choirs and operatic societies doing Gilbert and Sullivan. I cut my teeth doing all of that and loved every minute of it, which is probably why I’ve always been a practical musician.” Wilson went on to the Royal College of Music, joining as what he calls a “reluctant and not very good percussion player” but switched to composition and, later, conducting... I was given the time and encouragement to blossom, and I went from being almost thrown out at the end of my first year to winning the Tagore Gold Medal. They just let me do my thing.”

...and thus began a professional career as a conductor, doing his thing, his way. By now, it's every which way.


* NB: many amateur musicians are more than capable of giving professional-quailty performances.

John Wilson does polarise opinion, doesnt he? :-)

Personally, I feel he's given fresh insight on a number of classics. For instance, his Respighi overall is a close second to Philadelphia/Muti but Wilson's Feste Romane is particularly outstanding to my ears, but Muti has the edge on Fountains and Pines. Likewise his Ravel made me repeat playing the whole CD once I'd heard it, but, just opinions from an amateur trumpeter ;-)

Funnily enough the one recording of his that I found deadly dull was in one of his specialist areas, namely Vol 1 of his Eric Coates instrumental works for Chandos. It was particularly odd as he had previously made some excellent Coates recordings for ASV.

I hear stories (and of course, they may be just those, stories) that some of the top pro players clamour to get into his orchestras. He also seems to be very popular in his role as guest conductor for the BBCSSO.

He clearly is very gifted. However, whilst criticisms of his performances are fair game of course, comparisons to gifted amateurs are a bit harsh, even with the caveat that they can produce professional standard concerts.

[mahlerfan]

Interesting that like Rattle he was a percussionist. Though Rattle was a good one. It’s always struck me that the percussion dept is a good place to sit back watch the conductor and pick up a few tips. In the strings I guess you’re too busy playing the music to do much more than occasionally glance at the baton waver.

Harnoncourt might disagree

[Ein Heldenleben]

Maybe so , but great cellist conductors like Barbirolli and I think Toscanini might have disagreed.

I was being facetious . Being a string player is a massive advantage for a conductor because so much of it is about string sound, production and phrasing. Even if you can’t play you have to understand how the instrument works.I know two composers - one also a conductor who were basically advised to pick up a violin and learn it to help their careers. One of the reasons Barbirolli’s Tallis Fantasia is a classic is because he was a string player. I found Saturday nights performance too overblown with repetitive phrase swelling and deflation , too slow , too many stops and the soloists were too distant and sounded as if they were meandering - quite a common performance flaw . Superb players though. But what do I know I’m just an amateur piano basher (percussionist really)

[Lordgeous]

I think you're right there.

I sometimes get the impression (rightly or wrongly, probably the latter) that John Wilson resembles a gifted amateur* as a conductor, albeit a passionate and very hard-working one, while also a dedicated arranger and resuscitator of lost scores, who is able to call upon the cream of the orchestral crop to make recordings and give occasional concerts. The one I attended at the Proms a few years ago was not nearly as impressive as others of his I've watched on television. The late Hornspieler, sometime past of this parish, had no time for his stick-wagging.

I've listened carefully to several of his recent Sinfonia of London releases, recorded in brilliant Chandos sound, but I'm often left with a feeling of unfulfillment, and not only because one is ineviably recalling much-loved versions from yesteryear, eg Barbirolli in RVW and Elgar with the 'same' orchestra (!), but because a degree of inspiration seems to be missing. These hand-picked pros play almost too well for a conductor who doesn't wish to reveal his emotions, to look beyond the printed notes, or, rather, taint a composer's creation by interpreting the score through his own vision of what the composer might have meant - the complete opposite of someone like Bernstein, one might say. If the conductor has no such instinctive vision and is not prepared to take subjective risks, the results are likely to remain bland, however well played. Apologies to those who admire this conductor - all IMHO of course. There are many positives, not least the reconstruction of many lost Hollywood scores and seeing and hearing someone at the top of their game like Mike Lovatt blazing a solo from the trumpet section of the JWO.

From an interview by Stephen Moss for The Guardian in 2017:
'He puts the range of his repertoire down to his unusual background: working-class boy from Gateshead who fell in love with music (and Hollywood musicals in particular), taught himself to play the piano with the help of a musical mother, did A-level music at Newcastle College and formed his first orchestra at the age of 16. “I had a good school music teacher and a percussion teacher who took me under his wing,” he recalls in an accent that retains its Geordie lilt. “There was a lot of amateur music-making – brass bands, orchestras, choirs and operatic societies doing Gilbert and Sullivan. I cut my teeth doing all of that and loved every minute of it, which is probably why I’ve always been a practical musician.” Wilson went on to the Royal College of Music, joining as what he calls a “reluctant and not very good percussion player” but switched to composition and, later, conducting... I was given the time and encouragement to blossom, and I went from being almost thrown out at the end of my first year to winning the Tagore Gold Medal. They just let me do my thing.”

...and thus began a professional career as a conductor, doing his thing, his way. By now, it's every which way.


* NB: many amateur musicians are more than capable of giving professional-quailty performances.

Wasn't Beecham a self taught conductor who didn't attend ANY music college?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Wasn't Beecham a self taught conductor who didn't attend ANY music college?

That’s right - though he did have composition lessons.He learnt his craft through that extraordinary web of small scale opera companies that toured the UK . A web that just doesn’t exist any more . I am sure that some of the performances were ropey but rather like provincial rep for actors it was an invaluable training ground,

[cloughie]

Harnoncourt might disagree

Probably, and may I say that Cello to podium (and direction from the insturment) also suited Paul Tortelier, Heinrch Schiff and Antonio Janigro!
Harnoncourt always appears to me to have great attention to detail but probably over the years has not delivered for me many ‘go to the shelves I must have a listen’ recordings. The other noted conductor who made the Violoncello to Podium, the great JB, gives me the nod from shelf to CD player ferquently!

[ardcarp]

Watching the TV version of the John Wilson Prom, I thought his conducting style excellent for the Walton and the Watkins Flute concerto. He is in absolute control and clearly has a great rapport with his players. However I found something not quite 'there' in the the Elgar and especially in the VW Tallis Fantasia. Maybe there is more to being a great conductor than having a clear technique which orchestral players love. However I do admire him and what he has achieved.

With reference to the TV programme, I do detest all the inconsequential babble before, between and after. If the producers feel some 'talk' is needed, couldn't it be informative rather than silly and giggly?

[Lordgeous]

AND the way KD leaps in the minute applause starts after a piece ends. Maybe its not her fault and is directed by the producer? The BBC use to let us savour a little of the reaction to a piece before gently fading under the announcer. And every performance is 'brilliant' ;amazing' etc. I moan about this every year.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Have to say for those who like English music Andrew Davis is putting in a belter of a performance of RVW 4 at the moment …

[Maclintick]

Wasn't Beecham a self taught conductor who didn't attend ANY music college?

True, if by "self-taught" you discount his Oxford studies under John Varley Roberts at Magdalen, then with Frederick Austin at the Liverpool School of Music, & crucially 2 years of private composition studies with Charles Wood (Stanford's assistant at the RCM) . Also, he was lucky, as an über-privileged twenty-something, to have the means to rove around Europe & attend performances by leading musicians of the late-nineteenth century of a calibre then unknown in the UK.

[Maclintick]

Watching the TV version of the John Wilson Prom, I thought his conducting style excellent for the Walton and the Watkins Flute concerto. He is in absolute control and clearly has a great rapport with his players. However I found something not quite 'there' in the the Elgar and especially in the VW Tallis Fantasia. Maybe there is more to being a great conductor than having a clear technique which orchestral players love. However I do admire him and what he has achieved.

I agree there's something missing in JW's conducting of the repertoire here -- a sense of ebb-&-flow, lyrical repose & phrasing lacking in RVW Tallis,
Tintagel (deeper sea-swell needed, it was all rather rushed) & most of all in Enigma. Walton's Partita fared better in the fast'n'glitzy show-offy outer movements, but the Siciliana was perfunctory & entirely bereft of lilt. I do admire JW's work in resurrecting lost film music.

[Lordgeous]

Thed Coates encore was superb I thought.

[Prommer]

Thed Coates encore was superb I thought.

Grab yer Coates time!

[Prommer]

I too admire John Wilson, even if he is not yet the interpreter one might wish. His Beecham-like entrepreneurial activities and dynamism compel respect. The fact that he does not choose his orchestra in the public sector manner - or tick all of the boxes all of the time - is neither here nor there, as this is not public money. If he finds a niche in the market, it will probably succeed...

As for mahlerfan's sustained and subtle irony, those of us not in thrall to Guardian thinking and CRT have found the points made highly enjoyable. More, more!