Prom 2: John Wilson conducts the Sinfonia of London (16.07.22)

[mahlerfan]

'You' as in 'one'. Nothing personal intended!

'One' now, not 'we'?

I had not noticed that it was decreasing across the spectrum of 'political/humanitarian/liberal debate'. I'd have thought that was where consideration was strongest?

you may not follow the Trans etc debate.....

Well, there are many orchestras which take their name from the city in which they're based. I don't think for that reason they should all reflect the population of their own city. If they had any ambition towards excellence, they wouldn't restrict themselves to the local pool of players, surely?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Inclusion is more important than excellence, that should be their priority, then the excellence will follow. No reason why excellent musicians can't be drawn from the rich diverse people of London, diversity is our strength (the most diverse city on the planet?).

And if they don't want to restrict themselves, they can change their name and not give the diverse multi-ethnic population of London false hope...

[Keraulophone]

If it's the London Sinfonia, it should reflect the diversity of London as per the normal position on this matter

The ‘normal position’ is that a London orchestra would audition short-listed applicants from anywhere. Dominic Seldis is principal double bass of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, reminding us that the Sinfonia is a pick-up band as it was when Barbirolli recorded that famous Elgar/RVW LP for EMI in Kingsway Hall. JW picks up the best musicians he can find, even beyond the M25, not to emulate London’s diversity - whether measured by ethnicity, religion, age, gender, sexual orientation or social class. How would this ever be practicable?
.

[mahlerfan]

The ‘normal position’ is that a London orchestra would audition short-listed applicants from anywhere. .

If that's the case, how come the London Orchestras end up mainly white when the population of London is now mainly non-white?

[Ein Heldenleben]

The ‘normal position’ is that a London orchestra would audition short-listed applicants from anywhere. Dominic Seldis is principal double bass of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, reminding us that the Sinfonia is a pick-up band as it was when Barbirolli recorded that famous Elgar/RVW LP for EMI in Kingsway Hall. JW picks up the best musicians he can find, even beyond the M25, not to emulate London’s diversity - whether measured by ethnicity, religion, age, gender, sexual orientation or social class. How would this ever be practicable?
.

When you Google the principals it’s apparent that they all hold down jobs in other major world class orchestras and are often Profs at London music colleges. In other word they are drawn from one of the smallest employment pools in the world. It’s JW’s freelance band . If he wants to pay to get the best , and thinks he can turn a profit doing so good luck to him. They have been many freelance recording bands based in London over the years. They rise and they fall with the vagaries of the market and the fickleness of the public. It’s a pretty high risk game so I don’t blame JW for going for the best.

[cloughie]

When you Google the principals it’s apparent that they all hold down jobs in other major world class orchestras and are often Profs at London music colleges. In other word they are drawn from one of the smallest employment pools in the world. It’s JW’s freelance band . If he wants to pay to get the best , and thinks he can turn a profit doing so good luck to him. They have been many freelance recording bands based in London over the years. They rise and they fall with the vagaries of the market and the fickleness of the public. It’s a pretty high risk game so I don’t blame JW for going for the best.

Stokowski’s NatPO was designed on similar lines as I think Lucerne Festival Orchestra and i suspect many others across the globe, past and present!

[mahlerfan]

Stokowski’s NatPO was designed on similar lines as I think Lucerne Festival Orchestra and i suspect many others across the globe, past and present!

If it's across the globe, and the majority of the people on the globe are non-white, how come the faces in the 'crack' orchestras are overwhelmingly white? could it be white-privilege?

[Ein Heldenleben]

If it's across the globe, and the majority of the people on the globe are non-white, how come the faces in the 'crack' orchestras are overwhelmingly white? could it be white-privilege?

I suppose for same reason that Mahler , your hero, was white. Classical music was largely written by white people for white people and achieved global dominance because of their cultural global dominance. But things are changing - the emergence of musicians from China and Asia means the the power centre of classical music is moving . I suspect one day there will be more orchestral musicians in the Far East than there are in Europe.
Incidentally Hip hop and related genres e,g, Garage Is vastly vastly more economically important and globally influential than classical music. I would estimate that the top two or three US artists make more money than the whole classical music business.

[LHC]

If that's the case, how come the London Orchestras end up mainly white when the population of London is now mainly non-white?

Because they are recruiting people who can play their instruments to a very high level and will have studied for many years to achieve that level of skill and expertise. The pool of qualified musicians that they are recruiting from will be overwhelmingly white, although thankfully no longer also overwhelmingly male, even in London.

The idea that the only reason London Orchestras don’t reflect the ethnic makeup of the local population is because they are failing to recruit players from a vast pool of untapped ethnic minority musicians is quite plainly daft.

If you want to improve diversity, you have to do address the educational disadvantages that many ethnic minority (and white working class) children suffer from.

Playing in an orchestra is not the same as an office job, and to think that you can simply sack 50% of the current white orchestral musicians and replace them immediately with a more diverse mix of orchestral players is idiotic.

[cloughie]

If it's across the globe, and the majority of the people on the globe are non-white, how come the faces in the 'crack' orchestras are overwhelmingly white? could it be white-privilege?

I don’t know the answer to that!

[mahlerfan]

I suppose for same reason that Mahler , your hero, was white. Classical music was largely written by white people for white people and achieved global dominance because of their cultural global dominance.

That's not very inclusive, and we now live in different times. Why do we persist?

[mahlerfan]

The idea that the only reason London Orchestras don’t reflect the ethnic makeup of the local population is because they are failing to recruit players from a vast pool of untapped ethnic minority musicians is quite plainly daft.

You might think it's daft, but the consensus on these matters is that we need to desist from practices that give rise to inequalities.

I'm banging my head against a (white) wall here maybe I should say no more on the matter and only comment on the music?

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's not very inclusive, and we now live in different times. Why do we persist?

No it wasn’t very inclusive. Turn of the century Vienna wasn’t that “inclusive” and as the century wore on become very much less so for those who shared Mahler ‘s background. Thankfully I think we live in more enlightened times now. There are plenty of musicians from ethnic backgrounds in London orchestras and taking the London music scene in its entirety it must be one of the most vibrant and diverse on earth. I don’t think you should generalise from the example of one Classical freelance “pick-up “orchestra .

[LHC]

You might think it's daft, but the consensus on these matters is that we need to desist from practices that give rise to inequalities.

I agree, which is why I suggested that the educational inequalities, which have probably got worse over the last twelve years, should be addressed.

I don’t think that requiring London based orchestras to sack over 50% of their staff and players will actually do much to improve diversity.

[mahlerfan]

No it wasn’t very inclusive. Turn of the century Vienna wasn’t that “inclusive” and as the century wore on become very much less so for those who shared Mahler ‘s background. Thankfully I think we live in more enlightened times now. There are plenty of musicians from ethnic backgrounds in London orchestras and taking the London music scene in its entirety it must be one of the most vibrant and diverse on earth. I don’t think you should generalise from the example of one Classical freelance “pick-up “orchestra .

I'm talking about classical music, I'll leave it there.

[mahlerfan]

I agree, which is why I suggested that the educational inequalities, which have probably got worse over the last twelve years, should be addressed.

I don’t think that requiring London based orchestras to sack over 50% of their staff and players will actually do much to improve diversity.

But that's what the English Touring Opera are doing, in keeping with the Arts Council advice, and no-one complained - so what's different here?