Prom 17 (14.08.21) - Prokofiev, Bach, Mozart & Shostakovich

[cloughie]

Just because there seem to be a few wearing similar caps here, that does not make the observation that "some are easily pleased by 2nd rate performance" specifically targetted. The Barbed comment was specifically directed at one contributor here. That was in contravention of the first House Rule. Joining in a chorus of support for that contravention does not nullify that House Rule. As it happens, there is a long history of attempts at belittling views expressed in support of HIPP here. It is even known for the occasional pseudonym used here to be based on such dismissal of HIPP viewpoints
.

Agreeing or disagreeing with views is surely part of the discussions on the forum - certainly the HIPP supporters on here are not some persecuted minority and seem at times to think of those who still prefer the sounds they have listened to over a lifetime have somehow got it wrong and if there is any belittling it seems to be delivered by the HIPPsters.
To mix the senses - I prefer to chew on what I hear, search for more of what I like and spit out the things I find not to my taste. My tastes, likes and views on music are mine and unique but I am always happy to share them and anyone who doesn’t like them to reject them.

[french frank]

Agreeing or disagreeing with views is surely part of the discussions on the forum

It certainly is - long live disagreements! But I agree that a line is crossed when a particular view can be claimed as a reflection on people who hold that view. 'Some are easily pleased' certainly reflects on those who have already said they were pleased. It not only expresses a view ('this was a second rate performance') but goes further: you're so easily pleased you didn't realise it was a second rate performance.

But this digression becomes otiose, doesn't it? Is it time to move back to the concert itself?

[Ein Heldenleben]

The performances in virtually all the Proms this year have been “second-rate” judged by the very , very highest standards. I am however easily pleased not just by first and second but also third rate performances. I also enjoy amateur performances where , despite the odd wrong note , some one who has taken the trouble to learn a piece creates musical expression and emotion . One of the many fetishes surrounding music is this idea of the perfect performance. One of the great losses in music now is the death of amateur performance and the fetishising of the professional. The other mixed blessings are hero worship of virtuosi, conductors, obsession with audio perfection , fetishising expensive violins and pianos , “authentic “ performance , the canon of the great - and I’m “guilty” of most of them.
I think it’s more accurate to say some people are “easily pleased “ by making vague provocative comments on Internet forums and then enjoying what they stir up.

[Alison]

Very good summary Frenchie!

Sometimes is there not just a suspicion of HIPP enthusiasts opining theirs is a purer form of music appreciation?

Besides I really like eg Schiff’s Brahms and the Roth Eroica. I want the freedom to dip in and choose and go at my own pace.

[HighlandDougie]

The performances in virtually all the Proms this year have been “second-rate” judged by the very , very highest standards. I am however easily pleased not just by first and second but also third rate performances. I also enjoy amateur performances where , despite the odd wrong note , some one who has taken the trouble to learn a piece creates musical expression and emotion . One of the many fetishes surrounding music is this idea of the perfect performance. One of the great losses in music now is the death of amateur performance and the fetishising of the professional. The other mixed blessings are hero worship of virtuosi, conductors, obsession with audio perfection , fetishising expensive violins and pianos , “authentic “ performance , the canon of the great - and I’m “guilty” of most of them.
I think it’s more accurate to say some people are “easily pleased “ by making vague provocative comments on Internet forums and then enjoying what they stir up.

Well-said. There has been some really interesting music-making (and maybe some that has been perhaps slightly more forgettable) but, above all, some live music-making in front of real audiences who, like this listener at home, have been gaining real pleasure from the experience . I liked this 'Grauniad' editorial: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-to-the-rescue And FF's use of one of my favourite words, "otiose", made my morning. It has, I hope, put paid, at least temporarily, to yet more futile comments about HiPP, HuPP, non-HiPP, Hippsters and all the rest of it.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The performances in virtually all the Proms this year have been “second-rate” judged by the very , very highest standards. I am however easily pleased not just by first and second but also third rate performances. I also enjoy amateur performances where , despite the odd wrong note , some one who has taken the trouble to learn a piece creates musical expression and emotion . One of the many fetishes surrounding music is this idea of the perfect performance. One of the great losses in music now is the death of amateur performance and the fetishising of the professional. The other mixed blessings are hero worship of virtuosi, conductors, obsession with audio perfection , fetishising expensive violins and pianos , “authentic “ performance , the canon of the great - and I’m “guilty” of most of them.
I think it’s more accurate to say some people are “easily pleased “ by making vague provocative comments on Internet forums and then enjoying what they stir up.

I too agree - as an amateur singer. I can't claim to be an amateur musician - count me as one of the musically uneducated here, a category recently denuded of active members. I am lucky to live where there was (and will be again, I'm sure) at least one and probably more concerts at the weekend, at least - some professional standard, others amateur but well played (or not, at least partially) considering. There are also rehearsal orchestras. Of course I knew or got to know the performers in my locality, as well as members of the choirs where I sing.

I felt (and will again) that I need to support these concerts where possible even though I go to London to hear national and international artists. I remember meeting my brother in law for the first time after his choir's performance of the Mass in B minor - definite flaws, shaky moments but I was struck by the thought that maximum effort, and great sincerity as well as the greatness of JSB's creation shone through and I went away feeling it certainly wasn't 2 hours of driving and half a day wasted.....

Well-said. There has been some really interesting music-making (and maybe some that has been perhaps slightly more forgettable) but, above all, some live music-making in front of real audiences who, like this listener at home, have been gaining real pleasure from the experience . I liked this 'Grauniad' editorial: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-to-the-rescue And FF's use of one of my favourite words, "otiose", made my morning. It has, I hope, put paid, at least temporarily, to yet more futile comments about HiPP, HuPP, non-HiPP, Hippsters and all the rest of it.

I had to look up the meaning - but what was the Reader's Digest column read in olden day waiting rooms - "Improve your vocabulary"

[richardfinegold]

?????????????

If someone says "Some are easily pleased by 2nd rate performance" then that is a specific comment belittling people of a different opinion. The comment was made immediately after a post praising the performance so I can understand Barbirollians reaction. Your comment is nonsensical.

I thought that Bryn’s comment was spot on and addressed the issue at hand. It was surely not “nonsensical “. I had more of an issue with ff “otiose” comment. My understanding of that word is referring to a great fuss over nothing, or as the more common expression here “tempest in a teapot”. Regulating how forum members interact is critical to maintaining this site. So many of these sites degenerate into cat fights and displays of bitchiness and there has been some of that here as of late, with some prominent members taking a hike, so I think we have to work extra hard to police ourselves.

[french frank]

My understanding of that word is referring to a great fuss over nothing

otiose,'serving no practical purpose or result'. In this specific case, diverting the discussion from the actual concert. Given the dialectical possibilities of the discussion it might be worth removing it to Ideas & Theory?

[richardfinegold]

Very good summary Frenchie!

Sometimes is there not just a suspicion of HIPP enthusiasts opining theirs is a purer form of music appreciation?

Besides I really like eg Schiff’s Brahms and the Roth Eroica. I want the freedom to dip in and choose and go at my own pace.

This has been discussed before, but at what point in the Historical Timeline do we stop referring to a performance as HIPP? Roth and his band clearly are, but Schiff and Brahms? I’ve listened to the Schiff a few times now with pleasure but is it HIPP? Yes, the Piano is less imposing than a modern Bechstein but you wouldn’t mistake it for a fortepiano. The Orchestra makes the odd sound occasionally but this sounds a lot closer to “mainstream “ Brahms of yore than say, comparing Roth’s Eroica to a recording by Ormandy and Philadelphia.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well-said. There has been some really interesting music-making (and maybe some that has been perhaps slightly more forgettable) but, above all, some live music-making in front of real audiences who, like this listener at home, have been gaining real pleasure from the experience . I liked this 'Grauniad' editorial: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-to-the-rescue And FF's use of one of my favourite words, "otiose", made my morning. It has, I hope, put paid, at least temporarily, to yet more futile comments about HiPP, HuPP, non-HiPP, Hippsters and all the rest of it.

Thanks - yes “HIPP HIPP “for all live performers who have made this season so enjoyable…

[vibratoforever]

It certainly is - long live disagreements! But I agree that a line is crossed when a particular view can be claimed as a reflection on people who hold that view. 'Some are easily pleased' certainly reflects on those who have already said they were pleased. It not only expresses a view ('this was a second rate performance') but goes further: you're so easily pleased you didn't realise it was a second rate performance.

But this digression becomes otiose, doesn't it? Is it time to move back to the concert itself?

Absolutely, on all parts

[Barbirollians]

This has been discussed before, but at what point in the Historical Timeline do we stop referring to a performance as HIPP? Roth and his band clearly are, but Schiff and Brahms? I’ve listened to the Schiff a few times now with pleasure but is it HIPP? Yes, the Piano is less imposing than a modern Bechstein but you wouldn’t mistake it for a fortepiano. The Orchestra makes the odd sound occasionally but this sounds a lot closer to “mainstream “ Brahms of yore than say, comparing Roth’s Eroica to a recording by Ormandy and Philadelphia.

But surely a fortepiano was very old hat by the time of either of Brahms’s piano concertos ?

[Quarky]

Pardon my intrusion, and I am probably not the only one capable of reading the programme schedule, but Tom Service/ Rachel Podger / Nik Kenyon had a lot to say on the subject yesterday evening in the Listening Service.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This has been discussed before, but at what point in the Historical Timeline do we stop referring to a performance as HIPP? Roth and his band clearly are, but Schiff and Brahms? I’ve listened to the Schiff a few times now with pleasure but is it HIPP? Yes, the Piano is less imposing than a modern Bechstein but you wouldn’t mistake it for a fortepiano. The Orchestra makes the odd sound occasionally but this sounds a lot closer to “mainstream “ Brahms of yore than say, comparing Roth’s Eroica to a recording by Ormandy and Philadelphia.

Interesting question that . I have heard historically informed performances of Debussy and Elgar . Didn’t the Queen’s Hall orchestra specialise in “recreating the sound” of an Edwardian Orchestra? Once you get into the recorded era it gets a lot easier to recreate the performance style that for example Elgar wanted - it that’s your aim. Quite a few conductors seem to have listened to his discs - which are around 100 years old now. So as far Beethoven as Elgar was - which is a weird thought.

[Bryn]

Interesting question that . I have heard historically informed performances of Debussy and Elgar . Didn’t the Queen’s Hall orchestra specialise in “recreating the sound” of an Edwardian Orchestra? Once you get into the recorded era it gets a lot easier to recreate the performance style that for example Elgar wanted - it that’s your aim. Quite a few conductors seem to have listened to his discs - which are around 100 years old now. So as far Beethoven as Elgar was - which is a weird thought.

I have the New Queen's Hall Orchestra/Roy Goodman recording to Holst's Planets and St Paul's Suite, and very fine it is. too.



On the general question, instrumental technology and playing techniques are under constant development. Any stage of such developments can be investigated and attempts can be made to reproduce what performances at that stage might have sounded like. HIPP is by no means confined to a specific historical period. A good while back, I think it was on this forum that a recording of Philip Glass's Music in Twelve Parts was criticised for its use of modern digital keyboard instruments, rather than the original Parfisas.