Prom 17 (14.08.21) - Prokofiev, Bach, Mozart & Shostakovich

[edashtav]

I realise I'm not an expert in these matters but this pianist didn't even come close to living up to the hype as far as I'm concerned, and I can't see how he was Gramophone's Artist of the Year 2019 - what were the others in the running like?

I’m going to pose an issue as I felt that the balance was far too close to the piano and highlighted it at the expense of the orchestra. I noticed that Tamsin Little, who sat in the stalls was much happier than we R.3 listeners. Whatever, it was full fat JSB with attack and pedalling to the fore. I do have Víkingur’s JSB CD and love it to bits. Only in the slow movement of tonight’s JSB Concerto did I sense the beautiful lines, pianistic poetry and mystery that infused every track of that recording, elsewhere it was back to the bad, old days before authenticity flooded Bach’s scores with light, electric rhythms and irresistible energy. What I heard tonight was clangorous, earthbound, flaccid and extremely disappointing. Yet, I cannot believe my ears that’s why I am blaming a third party - the engineers who, I should add, have performed wonderfully well so far in this Proms season.

There was a heaviness about the Prokofiev, too, and one or two misjudged moments including the one which bsp has identified. Oh dear, a whole half lacking champagne fizz and sounding half sozzled in Vodka.

I may return to the second half later once my spirits have lifted.

Later, I remain depressed and disappointed and can’t add anything that’s positive.

[ardcarp]

I found the Bach a bit ponderous, lacking life and spark.

Couldn't agree more. Not just the pianist, but the strings too.

[vibratoforever]

See the HIPP police are out in force tonight.

Let's take the comment "the first encore was travesty". Because?

Do you mean the transcription? The performance?

The interval talk was enlightening listening to Olaffson and Tasmin Little talking about their attitudes to performing Bach and the reactions they get.

As for "flooding Bach’s scores with light, electric rhythms and irresistible energy" there are other dimensions to his music and room for a wide variety of approaches.

[Tony Halstead]

I guess the RAH audience were grateful for small mercies... they could probably HEAR the seamless, legato-pedalled piano in the Bach Concerto. Back in 1993, when I played this piece with The Hanover Band, using Trevor Pinnock's beautiful David Way harpsichord, the 'Times' reviewer opined that "the sound of a pin dropping would have been louder than the (soloist's) tinkly harpsichord". During the interval, the massed prommers grimly chanted "this concert can be HEARD on Radio 3!"

[Ein Heldenleben]

I guess the RAH audience were grateful for small mercies... they could probably HEAR the seamless, legato-pedalled piano in the Bach Concerto. Back in 1993, when I played this piece with The Hanover Band, using Trevor Pinnock's beautiful David Way harpsichord, the 'Times' reviewer opined that "the sound of a pin dropping would have been louder than the (soloist's) tinkly harpsichord". During the interval, the massed prommers grimly chanted "this concert can be HEARD on Radio 3!"

I would be very surprised if they could have heard the Ave Verum Corpus encore at the back of the hall last night . That was played pretty much piano throughout. I once heard Murray Perahia do Beethoven 4 with Haitink and the VPO . Murray is not , thankfully , a piano basher but at the back stalls he was sounded very quiet and didn’t really cut through a full size VPO. There were few such audibility problems in the post interval piece - Bruckner 9.
I long ago came to the conclusion that sitting at the back of the RFH as well as the RAH for a piano recital is pretty pointless . When I had top notch hearing in my twenties went to a Barenboim recital at the RFH and it was very quiet ….

[BBMmk2]

A very interesting looking programme. Worth catching up with?

[Ein Heldenleben]

A very interesting looking programme. Worth catching up with?

It doesn’t seem to have found favour with most of the commenters here . I enjoyed some of it …

[mrbouffant]

It was super in the hall.
I wonder how being present for a live performance affects perceptions compared to, say, sitting in an armchair treating it almost as a CD review.

[oddoneout]

I’m going to pose an issue as I felt that the balance was far too close to the piano and highlighted it at the expense of the orchestra. I noticed that Tamsin Little, who sat in the stalls was much happier than we R.3 listeners. Whatever, it was full fat JSB with attack and pedalling to the fore. I do have Víkingur’s JSB CD and love it to bits. Only in the slow movement of tonight’s JSB Concerto did I sense the beautiful lines, pianistic poetry and mystery that infused every track of that recording, elsewhere it was back to the bad, old days before authenticity flooded Bach’s scores with light, electric rhythms and irresistible energy. What I heard tonight was clangorous, earthbound, flaccid and extremely disappointing. Yet, I cannot believe my ears that’s why I am blaming a third party - the engineers who, I should add, have performed wonderfully well so far in this Proms season.

There was a heaviness about the Prokofiev, too, and one or two misjudged moments including the one which bsp has identified. Oh dear, a whole half lacking champagne fizz and sounding half sozzled in Vodka.

I may return to the second half later once my spirits have lifted.

Later, I remain depressed and disappointed and can’t add anything that’s positive.

One of those occasions where the venue experience was better than the broadcast one? I accept that issues with the sound engineering etc can cause problems but even without those I don't think this pianist is for me,and it's nothing to do with HIPP related matters.
The audience seemed happy with the Shostakovich so there was positivity at the end of the concert.

[edashtav]

One of those occasions where the venue experience was better than the broadcast one? I accept that issues with the sound engineering etc can cause problems but even without those I don't think this pianist is for me,and it's nothing to do with HIPP related matters.
The audience seemed happy with the Shostakovich so there was positivity at the end of the concert.

Your news about DSCH’s cheeky raspberry for Joe is welcome, oddoneout, and I shall skip the Mozart and give #9 a whirl on. BBC Sounds.

[jayne lee wilson]

It was super in the hall.
I wonder how being present for a life performance affects perceptions compared to, say, sitting in an armchair treating it almost as a CD review.

At home, you simply concentrate on the music - the performance and the technical presentation.
(Which is why its worth any contributor here saying what platform they used: web stream, DAB, FM etc....the latter has obvious level compression applied more-or-less continuously, which can easily over-emphasise concerto soloists, or even wind solos within the orchestra)

On my usual AAC 320 kbps stream, live and revisited later, there was no problem with the piano/orchestra balance - this was natural, with no undue forwardness of the soloist.

What was lacking musically in the Bach, and more damagingly the Mozart was nothing directly to do with the instrumental vintages - in one word, they lacked intensity.
Especially in the stormy Mozart, one of his greatest tragic masterpieces, this is a serious lack. What I heard was just "rather sad", all-too-beautiful soloistically and too polite orchestrally. Very uniform too - the three movements were barely differentiated for mood, colour or texture. This is a perennial problem with larger symphony orchestras in such rep., and one of the inspirations for period-instrumental performances and recordings. Harnoncourt, a cellist with the VSO for 17 years, once said he began his CMW project because he found too many such larger-orchestra presentations "inexpressive"... using this term in a very specific sense, he would be the last to deny the achievements of Clara Haskil, Annie Fischer or Ferenc Fricsay in such music.

Current favourites on disc here would be Goode/Orpheus, Buchbinder/VSO and Brautigam/Willens. So it isn't really, or necessarily, about HIPPs, period or moderne....

I do think chamber orchestras of whatever colour have a better chance of serving the music's expressive essences though.

****
The DSCH 9 went a little better, but as it tended toward the Haitink-Objective more than the Kondrashin-Impassioned, I didn't respond to it much.
For me it tends to be Russian Orchestras or nothing in this music (with the odd exception e.g. Berlin SO/Sanderling, V-Petrenko or Wigglesworth), but sometimes, the very polish and technical accomplishment of such as the Philharmonia takes an essential edge away.

[french frank]

Current favourites on disc here would be Goode/Orpheus, Buchbinder/VSO and Brautigam/Willens. So it isn't really, or necessarily, about HIPPs, period or moderne....

I do think chamber orchestras of whatever colour have a better chance of serving the music's expressive essences though.

A good selection of interpretations on Youtube including a live Buchbinder (Steinway) concert with the VPO, and Bilson with Gardiner etc. Quite a contrast there.


PS Since there seems to be a doubt as to whether this is Bilson or "Gunter Hasselmann", I found this explanation.

[edashtav]

[…]
****
The DSCH 9 went a little better, but as it tended toward the Haitink-Objective more than the Kondrashin-Impassioned, I didn't respond to it much.
For me it tends to be Russian Orchestras or nothing in this music (with the odd exception e.g. Berlin SO/Sanderling, Petrenko or Wigglesworth), but sometimes, the very polish and technical accomplishment of such as the Philharmonia takes an essential edge away.

Yes, some beautifully turned solos and ‘cadenzas’ , particularly from the woodwind and the whole was very diverting, but it was supposed to be Shostakovich and not Ibert so, I, too, missed the acerbic edge and sardonic bitterness. Very good on its own terms but this performance didn’t reveal the full truth. However, it was a Saturday Night Prom, and , maybe, the evening demanded something offering uncomplicated good cheer.

[kernelbogey]

It was super in the hall.
I wonder how being present for a live performance affects perceptions compared to, say, sitting in an armchair treating it almost as a CD review.

Listening on DAB in the kitchen in sub-optimal conditions, I was struck by the rapt silence of the audience during the Bach encore. Something for me of being in the presence of genius: my experience at that moment....

[jonfan]

VO is a Marmite pianist, love or hate him. Some years ago he did a Bach recital at St Luke’s that was his own continuous performance of pieces that was utterly mesmerising, in a Glenn Gould way. He’s at his best in solo items, as Bach, modern orchestra and Steinway just don’t mix.