Prom 74 (12.09.20) Last Night of the Proms

[Bryn]

Apparently. I was following with some interest the Talk Page on his Wikipedia entry (which he has frequently altered where he didn't agree with something which had been written about him). There was an argument about whether he could legitimately be described as a 'meteorologist'; or whether it should be 'weather forecaster' or 'weather consultant'. Currently 'weather forecaster, businessman and activist'.

Sounds as if he was a bright guy but now eccentric isn't the word for him. Well, yes, I suppose it is.

As far as I know, however, he has not expressed an opinion on whether Rule Britannia should be sung at the Last Night. I'm currently wrestling with the ethical question of whether 'personal sensitivities' need to be 'justified' in some way in order to be considered a reason for social change, public policy etc. Or merely persuasively argued.

Whatever, I think the BBC should make the historical context of the origins of Rule Britannia clearer, with reference to the Barbary slave traders' raids on Cornwall and Devin leading up to the development of the Royal Navy which saw them off around the time of writing of Rule Britannia. Many Britons had been taken as slaves in the preceding period.

[Serial_Apologist]

Apparently. I was following with some interest the Talk Page on his Wikipedia entry (which he has frequently altered where he didn't agree with something which had been written about him). There was an argument about whether he could legitimately be described as a 'meteorologist'; or whether it should be 'weather forecaster' or 'weather consultant'. Currently 'weather forecaster, businessman and activist'.

Sounds as if he was a bright guy but now eccentric isn't the word for him. Well, yes, I suppose it is.

As far as I know, however, he has not expressed an opinion on whether Rule Britannia should be sung at the Last Night. I'm currently wrestling with the ethical question of whether 'personal sensitivities' need to be 'justified' in some way in order to be considered a reason for social change, public policy etc. Or merely persuasively argued.

Oh "merely" () persuasively argued has to be the answer, surely? Many an infamy hath been perpetrated on the grounds of effectively vindicated or at least placated "personal sensitivities" on sides of all kinds.

[ahinton]

A dextrous retort, what? .

Or perhaps a case of the left not wanting to know what the right is doing?...

[LHC]

Whatever, I think the BBC should make the historical context of the origins of Rule Britannia clearer, with reference to the Barbary slave traders' raids on Cornwall and Devin leading up to the development of the Royal Navy which saw them off around the time of writing of Rule Britannia. Many Britons had been taken as slaves in the preceding period.

Indeed, and following abolition, it was the Royal Navy's West Africa squadron that was instrumental in bringing the Atlantic slave trade to an end.

Although it started with just two ships in 1808, the Navy's efforts to end the slave trade were expanded following the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, and by the middle of the Century, the squadron had 25 vessels, many of which had been seized from slavers, and more than two thousand personnel involved.

Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans.

[Old Grumpy]

A dextrous retort, what? .

Too right, old boy!

[ahinton]

Indeed, and following abolition, it was the Royal Navy's West Africa squadron that was instrumental in bringing the Atlantic slave trade to an end.

Although it started with just two ships in 1808, the Navy's efforts to end the slave trade were expanded following the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, and by the middle of the Century, the squadron had 25 vessels, many of which had been seized from slavers, and more than two thousand personnel involved.

Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans.

Sure, but oughtn't knowledge of that piece of history incline people to favour a change to "Britons never never shall be slavers"?

That said, whilst the Proms is run by an UK broadcaster and its concerts held in an UK venue, it is by no means for UK citizens, nor are its performances exclusviely devoted to UK music played by UK musicians.

Moreover, should Scotland and Wales seek and achieve independence from UK, the death knell for that kind of stuff will finally have been sounded as it will mark the end of "Britain" other than as an historical phenomenon as well as the end of living "Britons" (OK, that might not happen but it just as easily might, although I very much doubt that anyone at BBC has given a moment's consideration to the possibility in its decision making on the contents of future Last Night concerts)...

[LHC]

Sure, but oughtn't knowledge of that piece of history incline people to favour a change to "Britons never never shall be slavers"?

That said, whilst the Proms is run by an UK broadcaster and its concerts held in an UK venue, it is by no means for UK citizens, nor are its performances exclusviely devoted to UK music played by UK musicians.

Moreover, should Scotland and Wales seek and achieve independence from UK, the death knell for that kind of stuff will finally have been sounded as it will mark the end of "Britain" other than as an historical phenomenon as well as the end of living "Britons" (OK, that might not happen but it just as easily might, although I very much doubt that anyone at BBC has given a moment's consideration to the possibility in its decision making on the contents of future Last Night concerts)...

I think the LNOP is broadcast live on TV in more than 20 other countries across the World, and in previous years has also been shown in cinemas in the US, Canada and Japan. The global audience is huge, and I suspect most of that international audience would find this whole debate rather confusing. It’s also very popular in Germany, to the extent that some towns in Germany hold their own version of the last night, with the locals dressing up, waving Union Jack flags and singing along to Rule Britannia and LOHAG!

[french frank]

But what about Rees-Mogg reciting: "Britons never SHALL be slaves?" When did he last go to a Prom?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Whilst many are getting worked up about the singing of LOHAG and RB, my concern is that both P & C 1 and Jerusalem have been rearranged. I'm not anti-arrangement in principle, but my concern is that it's like Stephen Cleobury dumping the Willcocks descants in the KCC 9 Lessons and Carols. Every since Sir Colin Davis introduced Elgar's arrangement of Parry's Jerusalem, I've regarded it as unsurpassable, and I fear being proved right. The last lime I heard P & C being tinkered with was when Donald Duck was on Noah's Ark in Fantasia 2000, and it was the worst part of a disappointing film.

[Prommer]

According to our Culture Secretary, common sense has now prevailed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53998584

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-sung-at-proms

Yes, all most satisfactory. As you were!

[Prommer]

Frankly, that would make ME even more determined to drop it.
Is this how Tim Davie plans to run BBC?

We may have now passed 'peak woke', thankfully.

[Prommer]

My question would now be, how many singers? Who will sing the verses? in what arrangement? Will it be done in as low key a way as possible to make the philistine BBC suits feel better?

[Pulcinella]

My question would now be, how many singers? Who will sing the verses? in what arrangement?

My question is: Why does it matter?

Will it be done in as low key a way as possible to make the philistine BBC suits feel better?

Interesting choice of adjective: philistine = hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts

The hostility seems to be coming more from HMG and the Daily Mail/Daily Express.

There's a delicious irony (or two) in the facts that our current negotiations over fishing rights would suggest that we DON'T actually rule the waves, and that the increasing likelihood of Scottish independence will put an end to 'Britannia' too.

[Prommer]

My question is: Why does it matter?



Interesting choice of adjective: philistine = hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts

The hostility seems to be coming more from HMG and the Daily Mail/Daily Express.

There's a delicious irony (or two) in the facts that our current negotiations over fishing rights would suggest that we DON'T actually rule the waves, and that the increasing likelihood of Scottish independence will put an end to 'Britannia' too.

Why divert on to fishing policy? Waves? Scottish independence? Weird. Was asking about the musical arrangements. Anyone know?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please discuss the Last Night of the Proms here, and not party political issues that go well beyond the singing (or otherwise) of certain songs associated with the event.