Prom 14 (27.07.20) London Classical Players

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Where some musicians follow trends, Roger Norrington has always led them, not least in his long collaboration with the London Classical Players, the orchestra he formed to explore the playing styles relating to Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Berlioz. In this 1989 Prom, Schubert's monumental 'Great' symphony - once praised for its 'heavenly length'- is paired with early Beethoven.
Presented by Hannah French.

Beethoven: Symphony No. 2 in D major
Schubert: Symphony No. 9 in C major, ‘Great’

[Petrushka]

I attended this Prom and remember it well. These were early days for the HIPP movement in this sort of repertoire and it came as something of a culture shock, at least to me. The strings sounded very thin in the vast space of the Albert Hall and the orchestra felt too small. However, I've never heard the concert since 1989 and it will be fascinating to see if my impressions of being there come across on the recording though I suspect that the radio listener on the night had the better deal.

In all honesty, I've never cared much for either Norrington or HIPP since, though his recorded Beethoven cycle is very good. Nevertheless, will listen in tonight with keen interest.

[Bryn]

I attended this Prom and remember it well. These were early days for the HIPP movement in this sort of repertoire and it came as something of a culture shock, at least to me. The strings sounded very thin in the vast space of the Albert Hall and the orchestra felt too small. However, I've never heard the concert since 1989 and it will be fascinating to see if my impressions of being there come across on the recording though I suspect that the radio listener on the night had the better deal.

In all honesty, I've never cared much for either Norrington or HIPP since, though his recorded Beethoven cycle is very good. Nevertheless, will listen in tonight with keen interest.

Which of his recorded Beethoven symphonic surveys are you referring to? I like both but the LCP audio one was the true revelation for me. I do wish they would rebroadcast all nine of the television set with the LCP. Only a couple of them got a renewed airing during period of the Beethoven Experience. I will have to check YouTube.I know some of the LCP television ones are on there but maybe not all.

Well, the 8th is there, for a start:

[Petrushka]

Which of his recorded Beethoven symphonic surveys are you referring to? I like both but the LCP audio one was the true revelation for me. I do wish they would rebroadcast all nine of the television set with the LCP. Only a couple of them got a renewed airing during period of the Beethoven Experience. I will have to check YouTube.I know some of the LCP television ones are on there but maybe not all.

Well, the 8th is there, for a start:

I was referring to the LCP recordings and I remember that TV series very well as being a revelation.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I attended this Prom and remember it well. These were early days for the HIPP movement in this sort of repertoire and it came as something of a culture shock, at least to me. The strings sounded very thin in the vast space of the Albert Hall and the orchestra felt too small. However, I've never heard the concert since 1989 and it will be fascinating to see if my impressions of being there come across on the recording though I suspect that the radio listener on the night had the better deal.

In all honesty, I've never cared much for either Norrington or HIPP since, though his recorded Beethoven cycle is very good. Nevertheless, will listen in tonight with keen interest.

I thought the Beethoven 2 sounded tremendous but then I like fast tempi - also loved Roger's delicious accelerandi . I think the close miking helps. This is not music designed for the vast spaces of the RAH. Good to hear him now in interview - he sounds so enthusiastic about life and music.....

[kernelbogey]

I enjoyed both pieces tonight - more especially the Schubert.

What struck me was how unexceptional it now sounds - precisely because of the influence that they have had on subsequnet performance style. In 1989 I was not a fan or follower of the HIPP movement - if anything something of a sceptic - but I cannot imagine classical music now being performed in any other way.

[bluestateprommer]

Finally caught up with this 1989 vintage Prom with SRN and the LCP, to hear it for the 1st time. The freshness of the performances is certainly invigorating, and all credit to orchestra and conductor for that. I can well imagine Petrushka's and Heldenleben's points about this type of ensemble as not being suitable for the large space of the RAH. Even SRN commented on that in his quarantine interval banter with Hannah French.

It is certainly good to know that SRN is hale and hearty 30+ years on, and seemingly in fighting trim, during his conversation with HF. The downside is that we got his not-so-hidden narcissism (in his very opening greeting back to HF) and yet another of his grandiose pronouncements that border on, if not cross the line over into, fake news, namely when he sweepingly stated that:

"There is no slow music in Beethoven. Or in Mozart or Haydn, indeed."

No slow music in LvB, Mozart, and Haydn; really? I wonder then about the slow movements in all the concertos, sonatas, and string quartets, just to name 3 general classes of compositions by all 3 composers. SRN's above statement is about on par with his past claims about no orchestral vibrato before 1940 (total untruth: one rebuttal among many is The Philadelphia Orchestra during the 1912-1938 music directorship of Leopold Stokowski) and his 2011 claim to Charles Hazlewood at the time of his Mahler 9 Prom about the "recent" discovery of the resemblance of a 1st movement motive to a waltz motive in Johann Strauss II's "Freuet euch des Lebens" ("recent" if you extend "recent" as far back as 1971 and Philip Barford).

I've not heard SRN's LCP recording of Schubert D. 944, but I thought to look in my old Penguin Guide from the early 1990s for their review of that CD. It tallies quite well with what I heard in this performance:

"Roger Norrington's version is by far the most provocative of the period-performance versions of the Great C major, presenting the same sort of challenge in very fast speeds that one finds in his Beethoven, but this time without the backing-up of metronome markings, when Schubert was never able to hear or prepare a performance. Here again, the surprise is quickly modified, and one simply enjoys with new ears. The first movement brings splendid snap and swagger, exhilaratatingly presented with Mendelssohnian lightness. But it will take most listeners some time to adjust to the total absence of the usual slowings in the final coda, which here sounds perfunctory. Yet in his crisp, brisk reading of the slow movement Norrington does allow himself a relaxation in the cello melody after the big climax, rightly so. Only in the finale is the speed relatively conventional, with triplets clarified."

In short, from this Proms performance, the suspicion is that it's a pretty good approximation of his commercial recording. Compared to the extremely brisk start (and remainder of) the slow movement, the finale is indeed at a fairly "standard" pace.

In terms of the audience, the "happy clappers" between movements were well in evidence here, so this seems to have been an 'issue' long before Classic FM. But the music-making here was very strong, and during the movements themselves, the audience seemed well behaved. So there we are.

[Petrushka]

In terms of the audience, the "happy clappers" between movements were well in evidence here, so this seems to have been an 'issue' long before Classic FM. But the music-making here was very strong, and during the movements themselves, the audience seemed well behaved. So there we are.

As you probably know, bsp, Norrington not only encouraged the 'happy clappers' but specifically asked for it in his concerts on the grounds that this is what took place in Beethoven's/Schubert's time.

[bluestateprommer]

As you probably know, bsp, Norrington not only encouraged the 'happy clappers' but specifically asked for it in his concerts on the grounds that this is what took place in Beethoven's/Schubert's time.

Interestingly, in the quarantine interval banter with Hannah French (right after he knocks down an 'elitism' straw man that he sets up for himself), Norrington says at one point (emphasis mine):

"I was delighted to hear them break into applause in the Beethoven. That was lovely. I mean, we didn't encourage it, but once it started, we certainly liked it. Not to praise us, but to praise the music, and to show that we’re listening and we’re enjoying it."

The disconnect is pretty evident. I've read about similar shenanigans from SRN with respect to other performances, but I wasn't aware of that 'encouragement' in the context of this particular 1989 Prom (*). You were clearly there in person, so I know whom to trust here on this one. (It's not the man on the podium that night.)

(*) Per Petrushka (Post # 11), that did not specifically happen at this Prom.

[Bryn]

How sad that some people's concentration on the music os so easily disrupted by the expression of approbation by others. Strange how coughing and retuning between movements do not seem to have the same effect.

[Petrushka]

Interestingly, in the quarantine interval banter with Hannah French (right after he knocks down an 'elitism' straw man that he sets up for himself), Norrington says at one point (emphasis mine):



The disconnect is pretty evident. I've read about similar shenanigans from SRN with respect to other performances, but I wasn't aware of that 'encouragement' in the context of this particular 1989 Prom. You were clearly there in person, so I know whom to trust here on this one. (It's not the man on the podium that night.)

To be clear, though, bsp, Norrington didn't specifically request applause at this concert in particular. He didn't have to because his thoughts on the matter were very well known by the time of this Prom and the audience duly obliged. Norrington was, perhaps, being slightly disingenuous in his interval conversation. I'm sure that most of those attending this Prom will have been aware that Norrington expected inter-movement applause which in 1989 simply wasn't done in the concert hall.