Prom 1: First Night of the Proms - 19.07.19

[LMcD]

I listened to the R3 broadcast on Sounds and TBH thought the Glagolitic was a bit lacklustre for me. The applause did it for me as well. If it carries on throughout the season then it's CDs for me. And as for the stupid woman who let out a whoop at the first outbreak of hand flapping...words fail me that someone can be so obtuse.

It's probably the same person who (allegedly, m'Lud) cost Tim Henman a place in the Wimbledon men's singles final a while ago.

[Petrushka]

I listened to the R3 broadcast on Sounds and TBH thought the Glagolitic was a bit lacklustre for me. The applause did it for me as well. If it carries on throughout the season then it's CDs for me. And as for the stupid woman who let out a whoop at the first outbreak of hand flapping...words fail me that someone can be so obtuse.

Lacklustre it most certainly was not! I was present in the Hall and the end of the Slava (Gloria) with the thundering organ was truly thrilling - dammit, I nearly let out a whoop myself! Personally, I feel glad that the young woman concerned gets high on Janacek rather than on other substances there are around. It was a spontaneous reaction to an awesome sound and let's have more of it, I say. You'd have got nothing more than a pale shadow of the thrill from listening on the radio and perhaps Janacek would have approved of a whoop of joy at that moment.

Negative attitudes will see the slow death of classical music in performance if we are not careful.

[Master Jacques]

Your concept of "native music making" does sound oddly insular... .... it would need a revolution really on many media and artistic levels... who is going to conceive it, inspire it, foster it.... support it...? Not sure I would....the Proms have to be international for me, and the VPO in routine rep is too easy a target...

It would indeed need a revolution, given the dilution of the role of the performing arts in our national consciousness. I don't know whether you've seen the latest Arts Council "vision" document, but there isn't a single mention of the word opera (for example) in the whole thing. Professional musicians are to be de-funded in favour of the "individual creativity" of "ordinary people". It's a vision of the arts as a social service. So indeed there is much to be done, to save music as we know it. Slush-funding the VPO in the Albert Hall is not helpful.

Jayne, I hoped you wouldn't mistake what I've said for insularity, so just to clarify ... the musical repertoire itself is the "international" part of the Proms brief (pieces indeed such as the Glagolitic Mass, pronounced "Glagolothic" on R4's Front Row puff piece, by the way!) Jakob Hrusa is an excellent conductor of Czech music, one of the best around; so why not pair him with (say) the Ulster Orchestra to do Dvorak's popular violin concerto and Smetana's Ma Vlast? That would be a better fulfilment of BBC's national brief, would it not?

(And - for what it's worth - I think the Ulster Orchestra are potentially every bit as good as the Bambergers, no worse as "box office", and a darn sight cheaper to bring over!)

[cloughie]

Whoa there...!...
..I merely mentioned the ones that attract me most in the first week or so.... there are plenty of others I'll be attending, in whole or in part, here in the Home Concert Hall... too many to list here...

Your concept of "native music making" does sound oddly insular... .... it would need a revolution really on many media and artistic levels... who is going to conceive it, inspire it, foster it.... support it...? Not sure I would....the Proms have to be international for me, and the VPO in routine rep is too easy a target...

Anyway as for "fancy bands"...... those Bambergers are sounding more than OK right now..in a non-hackneyed Dvorak piece.... I'm off to pay proper attention...

I’m not sure that ‘Noonday witch’ and Korngold VC are routine rep and perhaps Orozco-Estrada is a conductor who can deliver an exciting New World from the VPO!
Maybe Alps has added his Frankfurt Alpine Sym to his collection and can give a view on the conductor’s credentials!

[doversoul1]

It would indeed need a revolution, given the dilution of the role of the performing arts in our national consciousness. I don't know whether you've seen the latest Arts Council "vision" document, but there isn't a single mention of the word opera (for example) in the whole thing. Professional musicians are to be de-funded in favour of the "individual creativity" of "ordinary people". It's a vision of the arts as a social service. So indeed there is much to be done, to save music as we know it. Slush-funding the VPO in the Albert Hall is not helpful.

Jayne, I hoped you wouldn't mistake what I've said for insularity, so just to clarify ... the musical repertoire itself is the "international" part of the Proms brief (pieces indeed such as the Glagolitic Mass, pronounced "Glagolothic" on R4's Front Row puff piece, by the way!) Jakob Hrusa is an excellent conductor of Czech music, one of the best around; so why not pair him with (say) the Ulster Orchestra to do Dvorak's popular violin concerto and Smetana's Ma Vlast? That would be a better fulfilment of BBC's national brief, would it not?

(And - for what it's worth - I think the Ulster Orchestra are potentially every bit as good as the Bambergers, no worse as "box office", and a darn sight cheaper to bring over!)

Apologies for going off from the Proms but I once posted a complaint about an American guest on Early Music Show or it might have been Composer of the Week to discuss Purcell or Dowland (something in that area). Surely there were plenty of British scholars on the subject who were just as good if not better, and also was it not the BBC’s duty to encourage young scholars here in Britain? It sounded like Britain First, I was told (to that effect). But if British orchestras and scholars are just as good, why pay extra and deprive ‘our own’ talent? It doesn’t look exciting enough, I suppose.

If by any chance anyone want to comment on the matter, please start a new thread on an appropriate place.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(And - for what it's worth - I think the Ulster Orchestra are potentially every bit as good as the Bambergers, no worse as "box office", and a darn sight cheaper to bring over!)

I'm not sure about this bit, MJ (literally so - I may be entirely mistaken in my understanding, and I hope professional orchestral players/managers/anyone who actually knows will correct me if I'm wrong). Don't the foreign orchestras visit the Proms as the Festival coincides with their international tours? As such, the cost to the BBC (ie us) would actually be less than getting an orchestra not on such a tour to come to London in Summer for a one (or two)-off gig? (And perhaps restrict "UK" performers from doing foreign tours themselves at this time of year.)

(I'm also equally unsure about how restricting performances to UK & Northern Ireland orchestras/ensembles would affect sales of Prom concerts abroad - would audiences be as keen to hear a British band as some of the more famous international names? "Who's playing, Doris?" "I didn't hear - I think they said it was an orchestra suffering from ulcers." "Ahh - that'll be the Brexit effect.").

I, for one, would prefer a greater number of New and Early Music performers from abroad to some of the home-bred "regulars".

[Master Jacques]

I'm not sure about this bit, MJ (literally so - I may be entirely mistaken in my understanding, and I hope professional orchestral players/managers/anyone who actually knows will correct me if I'm wrong). Don't the foreign orchestras visit the Proms as the Festival coincides with their international tours? As such, the cost to the BBC (ie us) would actually be less than getting an orchestra not on such a tour to come to London in Summer for a one (or two)-off gig? (And perhaps restrict "UK" performers from doing foreign tours themselves at this time of year.)

(I'm also equally unsure about how restricting performances to UK & Northern Ireland orchestras/ensembles would affect sales of Prom concerts abroad - would audiences be as keen to hear a British band as some of the more famous international names? "Who's playing, Doris?" "I didn't hear - I think they said it was an orchestra suffering from ulcers." "Ahh - that'll be the Brexit effect.").

I, for one, would prefer a greater number of New and Early Music performers from abroad to some of the home-bred "regulars".

I take the point that this is in danger of going o/t ... but (apart from heartily agreeing with your final point!) my thought is that as all the "home" orchestras are dutifully trotted out to do just a couple of Proms, why not stretch their allowance to about five or more, to allow them to be a feature and showcase their admirable qualities?

And why should the BBC London orchestra always do these first nights? (Assuming they do - I'd be glad to be corrected on this!) That too seems to me a thoughtless 'tradition': wouldn't (e.g.) the BBC Welsh have been able to do at least as terrific a job with the Glagolitic Mass as their London colleagues? I take Makropoulos's point about the difficulty of getting it spot on, but it always sounds marvellous to audiences, whether or not the brass are all over the place!

The Proms absolutely should not be about potential "sales abroad". If it's not about artistic quality its not worth spending a fortune on in the first place. It's the event itself that must be the special lure, not the question of which touring orchestra from abroad might be undertaking this or that popular concert.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... my thought is that as all the "home" orchestras are dutifully trotted out to do just a couple of Proms, why not stretch their allowance to about five or more, to allow them to be a feature and showcase their admirable qualities?

And why should the BBC London orchestra always do these first nights? (Assuming they do - I'd be glad to be corrected on this!) That too seems to me a thoughtless 'tradition': wouldn't (e.g.) the BBC Welsh have been able to do at least as terrific a job with the Glagolitic Mass as their London colleagues?

Presumably, because of rehearsal convenience? To make a "big splash" on the Opening concert, getting everybody together for perhaps more rehearsals than would be "cost-effective" getting the other BBC bands involved? And, I suppose, for the BBC Festival, it's fitting that the BBC Symphony Orchestra ("unqualified" by "regional" additions to the name) should be given prime spot? I don't kn ow - but, on Friday's showing, it's a top-rate ensemble which isn't taking its "prime slot" for granted. (This is an extention, I think, of the "Why are all the Proms held in London?" discussion.)

The Proms absolutely should not be about potential "sales abroad". If it's not about artistic quality its not worth spending a fortune on in the first place. It's the event itself that must be the special lure, not the question of which touring orchestra from abroad might be undertaking this or that popular concert.

But, with increasing criticism of the Beeb from its rivals and political opponents, Money sadly is, and has to be, a prominent feature, whether or not it "should" be. In today's philistine cultural atmosphere, some revenue from abroad has to feature, alas.

[kernelbogey]

Any reader of 19th century novels will be familiar with those characters who pop into concerts at any time during performances, chat with their friends, check out who else is there from 'society', give some applause and then dash off before the end. Silence in concerts may not be traditional, but when one wants to listen to something without distraction surely one should be allowed to do so. When listening to music one is often following a thread, a musical narrative. Applause between movements can disrupt this. Sometimes, however, it may be appropriate following a brilliant cadenza or a musical movement so full of excitement one cannot but fail to cheer - but I get the impression these days that people applaud simply to break up the boredom because they have lost the ability to concentrate in this age of facebook and obsessive phone scrolling.

I agree with all of what Bella says here. I am definitely in the camp of not wanting inter-movement applause (or whooping, come to that).

And yet, and yet - the Glagolitic Mass is a wonderfully exciting work - veruju, veruju - and notwithstanding the applause as the organ came in for the penultimate movement, I stood up and turned up the volume to 11 on me old Leak amp and remained standing to the end - saying WOW! out loud at the end.

I think it works like this, especially on a first hearing, and even more so if live: it is a physical excitement, and for some folks, that comes out in a sound.

[jayne lee wilson]

It would indeed need a revolution, given the dilution of the role of the performing arts in our national consciousness. I don't know whether you've seen the latest Arts Council "vision" document, but there isn't a single mention of the word opera (for example) in the whole thing. Professional musicians are to be de-funded in favour of the "individual creativity" of "ordinary people". It's a vision of the arts as a social service. So indeed there is much to be done, to save music as we know it. Slush-funding the VPO in the Albert Hall is not helpful.

Jayne, I hoped you wouldn't mistake what I've said for insularity, so just to clarify ... the musical repertoire itself is the "international" part of the Proms brief (pieces indeed such as the Glagolitic Mass, pronounced "Glagolothic" on R4's Front Row puff piece, by the way!) Jakob Hrusa is an excellent conductor of Czech music, one of the best around; so why not pair him with (say) the Ulster Orchestra to do Dvorak's popular violin concerto and Smetana's Ma Vlast? That would be a better fulfilment of BBC's national brief, would it not?

(And - for what it's worth - I think the Ulster Orchestra are potentially every bit as good as the Bambergers, no worse as "box office", and a darn sight cheaper to bring over!)

Well, potentially, yes, but knowing their very different sound from R3 and various Chandos recordings (the Handley Delius is especially adored), I wouldn't have been as keen to hear them, as opposed to the glorious Bambergers, in this particular rep. And programmes taken on tour can be marvellously well-practised and well-played - a real & specific pleasure of the Proms to hear them.

Of course the very famous bands from Berlin, Vienna etc often bring depressingly MOR fare to the Proms...it can make that last week or two an anticlimax; I sigh wearily about that as much as anyone.
But the best of the festival is often those earlier or midseason visitors like the BSO, from various European or American etc locations, whose rep is usually less well-worn (marvellous 2018 example: Minneapolis/Vanska in the Ives 2 - a stunner! I recall Bryn writing a letter of thanks to the band itself!). And as I said - often wonderfully sharp-honed through repeated performance.
(The Ulster's own intriguing-looking Prom 42 is in fact another very good example of a visitors' highlight...)

Adding up all the BBC Orchestras Proms, there's still a generous number....and as fhg underlines, you still have to make ends meet... it's never just about programming the unfamiliar rep (God knows we all have our fantasies there...)....you still have to get people to come, and Classical Musical Culture isn't the most adventurous, perhaps especially from the lister POV, sadly...

("Glagolithic"? Hey I like that! It could catch on... Mythic, monolithic, Palaeolithic, Glagol.....a stony ancient language born in the mouths of its users...)

[Master Jacques]

"Glagolithic"? Hey I like that! It could catch on...

The half-wit presenter (I judge him on general form, rather than this particular slip) actually said "Glagolothic", which made it sound even more like one of those lost dinosaur eras you mention!

To be frank, when the Proms list is published I always look at the repertory - if there's something I fancy I really could not care less about who's doing it. One of the concerts I'll be attending is Prom 13, Messiaen's Des canyons aux étoiles, and I've only just this moment checked to see which band it is - I see it's the BBC SO under Oramo, which is fine. But if it had been (e.g.) the BBC Welsh National under Xian Zhang, I'd have been equally pleased!

Judging from the amount the BBC orchestras fritter on marketing, finances today are at least no worse than they were in the so-called "good old days". The truth is, if you do good work, the money comes. You cannot afford to think about budgets first and art second - we've seen all too often what happens when administrators get too strong a grasp on artistic organisations. They wither and die in short order. The bureaucrats take degrees in How to Kill the Goose that lays the Golden Eggs.

[Bryn]

To be frank, when the Proms list is published I always look at the repertory - if there's something I fancy I really could not care less about who's doing it. One of the concerts I'll be attending is Prom 13, Messiaen's Des canyons aux étoiles, and I've only just this moment checked to see which band it is - I see it's the BBC SO under Oramo, which is fine. But if it had been (e.g.) the BBC Welsh National under Xian Zhang, I'd have been equally pleased!

Promming or seated?

[kernelbogey]

The half-wit presenter (I judge him on general form, rather than this particular slip) actually said "Glagolothic", which made it sound even more like one of those lost dinosaur eras you mention![....]

I happened to catch Front Row on Radio 4, which I don't normally listen to, when John Wilson (no, not the conductor) was hosting. He twice mispronounced 'Glagolitic' in the course of a piece on the Proms of less than ten minutes.

Now, I know it is an unfamiliar word, but surely if you present an Arts programme, the professional thing to do is to check its pronunciation - and if you still make a hash of it to apologise to your listeners.

This is not the first time I've had cause to take against this presenter, and I shan't rush to listen to him again - to put the thought at its most polite.

[Bryn]

Oh dear yes - the introductory chat was really abysmal. Thank God the performance itself was quite the opposite –pretty stunning for the most part. On a nitpicking point, from what I could see, the parts they were using were the corrected Universal Edition material of the revised version rather than the Bärenreiter critical edition of it (though in terms of the sound it makes, this amounts to the same thing, of course).

Thanks for the observation re. the music on the stands. I forget where I read that the performance was to of the Critical Edition. Re. the inverecund outbursts of approbation, I am usually more than tolerant of inter-movement applause but here it imposed upon the decay and following attack of the music itself. I have tried as best I can to edit it out for future listening but hints remain.

[Master Jacques]

Promming or seated?

Seated, Bryn, as usual in my preferred side stalls (in this case on the cello side!)