Prom 17: Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (2) - 31.07.19

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Simon B
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 782

    #46
    From a familiar position in the side stalls I noticed nothing out of the ordinary about the timbre/volume etc of the timps... They sounded like what they were - German style timps being (well) played in fairly typical German style - and with prominence appropriate for Sibelius.

    Most years there will be a debate similar to the above. The explanation (purely IMO of course) often relates to the profound impact that orchestra layout on the RAH stage has. I can think of no other hall where it makes such a difference, particularly to low pitched instruments. The effect can be similarly profound on both the in-hall sound and on the relay, albeit in different ways. This often explains apparent night-to-night variations in the perceived sound quality of the relays.

    The BRSO wind section was hunting as a pack, all clumped together, horns on the "wrong" side - with the timps directly behind them. Thus the mics for pretty much all the wind instruments would have been full of timp sound - no way of getting one without the other. This is a very different situation to that presented by the way a British orchestra typically sets up there...

    Meanwhile, my reactions chime with the view that several have expressed - the concert got better as it went on. I'm surprised to discover that YNS has recorded Sibelius 1 (or anything). I assumed that what we heard was the result of a conductor stepping in to cover a program not of his making and thus including a work that's not really his bag. It sounded a bit like Sibelius arr Rachmaninov and on limited rehearsal to boot... Not a piece to start a concert with anyway - maybe it would have cohered more in the hands of Jansons.

    Everyone seemed much more at home in the Prokofiev (Gil Shaham as good a last minute stand in as you're likely to hear). The Strauss was beautifully played although rather more swagger and oomph from the horns wouldn't have hurt, and there's no concealing the way that the Rosenkavalier "suite" was so obviously cobbled together in haste albeit from the very finest components.

    Comment

    • jayne lee wilson
      Banned
      • Jul 2011
      • 10711

      #47
      Very useful Simon B, thanks.....
      I wondered about the relative position of the timps... evidently, where you sit in the hall has a profound effect on your acoustic audition too, as this thread shows, far more than in other purpose-built venues.

      At home one perceives any difference from the usual balance-expectations (from years of listening with broadly the same setup), which was why I commented on the timps sound. But the performance was technically undistinguished so I didn't make too much of those sonic problems later in the thread.

      A shame the Métropolitain/YNS Sibelius 1 (first of a projected cycle) is greyed out on Qobuz apart from the scherzo; given the brevity of the album, a CD looks uninviting! Quelle surprise...

      View from one of the best current Gramophone reviewers....

      Comment

      • Cockney Sparrow
        Full Member
        • Jan 2014
        • 2293

        #48
        Its available on Naxos Music Library *

        Nézet-Séguin, Yannick; Orchestre Metropolitain du Grand Montreal. ATMA Classique
        Catalogue No.: ACD24031
        (As is the original Sibelius 5th (Vanska, Lahti SO) Catalogue No.: BIS-CD-863
        * #16 : http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7506-Online-Naxos-music-library/page2

        Comment

        • gradus
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 5637

          #49
          Originally posted by Cockney Sparrow View Post
          Its available on Naxos Music Library *

          Nézet-Séguin, Yannick; Orchestre Metropolitain du Grand Montreal. ATMA Classique
          Catalogue No.: ACD24031
          (As is the original Sibelius 5th (Vanska, Lahti SO) Catalogue No.: BIS-CD-863
          * #16 : http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7506-Online-Naxos-music-library/page2
          YN-S also on Spotify.

          Comment

          • Maclintick
            Full Member
            • Jan 2012
            • 1085

            #50
            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

            View from one of the best current Gramophone reviewers....
            http://www.classicalsource.com/db_co...w.php?id=16676
            Gutman's review is one of those which make me think I've heard a completely different concert. His appraisal of the Prokofiev VC2 strikes me as grudging and niggardly, unkindly dismissive of GS's instinctual performance-style, which in essence amounts to nothing less than positive engagement with his fellow-musicians -- as "bonhomie, foot-stamping and moving about as if to address different orchestral musicians directly". Has he never seen Shaham in action before ? Sure he's a bonhomous and vital figure on the stage, & surprise, surprise, he'll pirouette to duet with a wind-player, or give an emphatic down-bow where it's needed. For Gutman, perhaps such mannerisms are detrimentally "old-school" -- another faintly damning accusation. If he's at all "old-school", it's one with distinguished alumni such as Oistrakh, Milstein, etc. GS's Bach encore was apparently replete with "playful twiddles" -- by which Gutman presumably means a modicum of baroque ornamentation in repeat passages. How Dare He ? Who does he think he is ? Rachel Podger ?

            He's on marginally firmer territory in his review of Sibelius 1, though here we must suffer meaningless furniture metaphors characterising the BRSO sound as "mahogany" -- & a lazy assumption that because YNS stepped in at the last-minute, the resulting performances must be underprepared, sloppy, & with poor ensemble -- "a lack of careful dovetailing and dynamic terracing". Having now heard it twice, I find it remarkably free of such imprecisions, and find YNS's subtle way with dynamic gradations ("terracing"?) perfectly acceptable within his overall über-Romantic conception. FWIW, I would prefer a tighter grip on the structure of the piece, but within YNS's own terms I found it immensely enjoyable.

            Comment

            • Ein Heldenleben
              Full Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 7054

              #51
              Thanks Maclintink for posting the review . Is it now established beyond reasonable doubt that the timp player in the hall was in fact hitting the timps quite hard and the balance engineers can be exonerated ? Mind you I disagree with him over the performance ....

              Comment

              • Bryn
                Banned
                • Mar 2007
                • 24688

                #52
                Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                Thanks Maclintink for posting the review . Is it now established beyond reasonable doubt that the timp player in the hall was in fact hitting the timps quite hard and the balance engineers can be exonerated ? Mind you I disagree with him over the performance ....
                I think you will find that it was jlw who posted the link to the review.

                Comment

                • Ein Heldenleben
                  Full Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 7054

                  #53
                  Yep sorry thanks Jayne .

                  Comment

                  • Maclintick
                    Full Member
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 1085

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                    Thanks Maclintink for posting the review . Is it now established beyond reasonable doubt that the timp player in the hall was in fact hitting the timps quite hard and the balance engineers can be exonerated ? Mind you I disagree with him over the performance ....
                    I'm not sure about the timps for the second of BRSO/YNS's Proms -- having not heard the concert in situ in the RAH but via BBC Sounds. I was in the hall the previous evening & didn't register any timpanistical problems...the DSCH5 coda was properly thunderous, & satirically bombastic, as previously noted.

                    Comment

                    • Ein Heldenleben
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 7054

                      #55
                      The lukewarm review to the Sibelius has this sentence -

                      ‘This one just seemed pale, although the timpanist had a different, more demonstrative performance in mind. ‘

                      For ‘demonstrative’ I read ‘loud’

                      Like you (and unlike the reviewer ) I enjoyed the Sibelius performance . Haven’t heard the DSCH - saving it up as it sounds from forumite reviews like its a cracker...

                      Comment

                      • Maclintick
                        Full Member
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 1085

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                        The lukewarm review to the Sibelius has this sentence -

                        ‘This one just seemed pale, although the timpanist had a different, more demonstrative performance in mind. ‘

                        For ‘demonstrative’ I read ‘loud’

                        Like you (and unlike the reviewer ) I enjoyed the Sibelius performance . Haven’t heard the DSCH - saving it up as it sounds from forumite reviews like its a cracker...
                        It certainly was, despite a minor caveat that YNS indulged in sudden accelerandi in places when he realised that the tempo in his head didn't match what he was actually conducting...In defence of his controversial Sibelius 1, I would advance a view that great music can survive a multitude of interpretative approaches, some more successful than others...

                        Comment

                        • LMcD
                          Full Member
                          • Sep 2017
                          • 8761

                          #57
                          I'm not sure whether this has been mentioned before, but this Prom can be seen on BBC4 on August 30th.

                          Comment

                          • Edgy 2
                            Guest
                            • Jan 2019
                            • 2035

                            #58
                            We attended both BRSO Proms.
                            The timps seemed uncomfortably loud only in the Sibelius (from the circle to the left of the stage).
                            “Music is the best means we have of digesting time." — Igor Stravinsky

                            Comment

                            • jayne lee wilson
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 10711

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Maclintick View Post
                              It certainly was, despite a minor caveat that YNS indulged in sudden accelerandi in places when he realised that the tempo in his head didn't match what he was actually conducting...In defence of his controversial Sibelius 1, I would advance a view that great music can survive a multitude of interpretative approaches, some more successful than others...
                              Not so much the interpretation, which was too obviously a work-in-progress, more the technical deficiencies in its execution..(which seemed to me obvious in the first movement especially; by the finale, it was, as I said, a bit more together.....).

                              BTW, "Mahogany" in David Gutman's CS review, is a colour-metaphor, rather than a "meaningless furniture" one.... the BRSO did indeed have a rather dark, smooth, rich tonal character, most obviously in the Beethoven 2 and the Rosenkavalier-Suite.......
                              And I know exactly what he means by the lack of "Nordic Light" in the Sibelius - it lacked any sense of the Sibelian idiom; but I didn't feel it worth commenting on this aspect before, as the performance was relatively undistinguished.

                              ***
                              I did a quick YNS - Rouvali comparison of the Sibelius 1 scherzo, on Qobuz-S at 24/96....

                              Right away you feel there's something lacking in Montreal - all very neat and tidy, nicely-played, but where's the drive, impact or atmosphere?
                              The Rouvali leaps out of the speakers full of the inner animation of keenly attacked rhythms, vivid wind characters, very lively micro-dynamics; far more sharply defined in melodic profile. Perhaps above all that evocative sense of Sibelian atmosphere and tension, the cold light, the stoniness; the feeling that this really matters....
                              Only one movement, yes, but the comparison was almost shocking.

                              ***

                              Just noticed (!) ...August Gramophone has a review of the O.Metropolitain/YNS Atma recording of Sibelius 1 by ES, which is quite the most negative review I've seen in the magazine this year...."the whole thing lacks imperative"....."self-consciously Tchaikovskian manner....lingering inappropriate rubato"...."flaccid"..."aimless"..."sprawling"....
                              Like me he's a huge YNS fan and feels, to say the least, baffled and rather put out.
                              Perhaps not so very different from Bavaria in London, then....

                              I picked out the GSO/Rouvali earlier this year as a truly exceptional Sibelius record. Do seek it out if you've not already..
                              Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 04-08-19, 07:19.

                              Comment

                              • marvin
                                Full Member
                                • Jul 2011
                                • 173

                                #60
                                More obviously, vice versa!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X