Prom 17: Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (2) - 31.07.19

[edashtav]

Hmm....
I had a few problems with the Sibelius 1...

A cautiously played opening section, the 1st climax sounded laboured, the orchestra uneasy, as if unsure of the direction. Ragged brass.
The timps were thunderously dominant - even a bit OTT I thought (the room shook....wonder what it was like in the hall) which for me only underlined the uncertainty of the ensemble. Perhaps they haven't played it with this conductor very often.

A very Romantic approach from YNS, much rubato and phrasing very nurtured, almost manicured. I felt this baffled momentum, lost the flow and surge, and the many wind details lacked inner tension. (The coda went better with some lovely quiet solo details, then a more cohesive conclusion).
Yes, personally I prefer this movement, and this symphony, swifter, sharper and more direct, but even so I felt this wasn't well done of its type.

Things were tighter in (ii), the band seeming more in tune & in touch with their conductor, but I still wanted more urgency - this was again very episodic, played rather as if it were a tone poem - so at least there was more life and colour here.
The finale was the highlight of this reading (one I felt wasn't settled or clearly defined) with maximum contrast between a very quick, urgent approach to the allegro and the soaring intensity of the big tune. As if YNS was inspired by the very title "quasi uni fantasia" to give us his and the orchestra's best.

Just a shame that degree of conviction wasn't there earlier, in the 1st movement especially.

Hmm, I have a few problems with Jayne's review.

I felt the start was mysterious, inching forward out of Northern permafrost. Once the music emerged, I was delighted by its crisp rhythms and the excellent chording across the fine band. This wasn't Sibelius in tyro mode leaning heavily on Tchaikovsky, no it was a rugged Finn undiluted by Tchaik's warmth, charm and humanity. There was an unexpected intensity, almost a coldness that seared like clasping something that's been ages in the deep freeze. Jayne... I was bowled over... and looked to see if I should buy the recent Canadian. release only to find that the 42" symphony occupies a whole CD.

I felt the performance went from strength to strength as it progressed and that it projected a radical new look at Sibelius's score, a piece laying down the foundations for Sibelius's mature symphonic style and one that was sloughing off and rejecting the romantic shackles of Tchaikovsky and his school. The performance gripped and informed me, just the stuff the Proms needs. Splendid!

[Barbirollians]

Shaham’s Prokofiev 2 with Previn is outstanding - clearly a soloist in Batiashvili’s league.

[teamsaint]

Well from a fabulous row 3 view in the Arena......

Jayne has made an important point about the Sibelius, which chimes with what I saw and heard.
Y N-S was definitely in micro managing mood in this. You could quite clearly see and hear each phrase being manipulated in very specific ways, often in a sort of “ Easy in , hard out” way, in an effort, I think, to avoid hitting the start of phrases in too heavy and obvious a way. And I do think that this got in the way of some flow.
Suffice to say, though I really enjoyed it, and some of the string playing was almost beyond belief, I think the performance stopped a bit short of magical, and in truth the audience reaction rather suggested they felt the same. They struggled to raise the enthusiasm to bring him back for a second call. But for all that, much to enjoy.

But the Prokofiev was just as Jayne said, but turbo charged. GS ( 8 yards away, uninterrupted view) could do this in his sleep, but put everything, including a whole lot of love into it. Wall to wall interaction with the conductor,
leader, audience and perfection in every aspect of the playing. N-S more or less let him get on with it, because there probably isn’t any point in doing anything else. If you haven’t heard it, watch it on telly, and get a good sound rig. It will prove to be one of the highlights of the season. Truly magical, and GS showed his star quality in abundance.

The Strauss was a lot of fun,and wonderfully played. I imagine they have this pumping on the stereo in the dressing rooms before the concert.

[Maclintick]

I was in the hall last night, and revelled in LVB2, but only caught the second half of tonight's concert on the wireless. Very fine it was -- Gil Shaham a distinguished replacement for Lisa B, as was YNS for the indisposed MY -- this orchestra can certainly call in favours when it needs to ! Reputations aside, apart from Cleveland, I don't think I've heard a better orchestra at the Proms for many a year...Apropos of Ed & JLW's comments, Sibelius & the operatically-inclined YNS wouldn't actually strike me as a musical marriage made-in-heaven, but, I'll have to catch up later...

[edashtav]

I was in the hall last night, and revelled in LVB2, but only caught the second half of tonight's concert on the wireless. Very fine it was -- Gil Shaham a distinguished replacement for Lisa B, as was YNS for the indisposed MY -- this orchestra can certainly call in favours when it needs to ! Reputations aside, apart from Cleveland, I don't think I've heard a better orchestra at the Proms for many a year...Apropos of Ed & JLW's comments, Sibelius & the operatically-inclined YNS wouldn't actually strike me as a musical marriage made-in-heaven, but, I'll have to catch up later...

Thoughtful and constructive comments, MacClintick, thank you.
I failed to note one paragraph from Jayne where we had an identity of view: "The timps were thunderously dominant - even a bit OTT I thought (the room shook....wonder what it was like in the hall) which for me only underlined the uncertainty of the ensemble. Perhaps they haven't played it with this conductor very often."
The same was true in the finale of the DSCH in the previous Prom.

[Stanfordian]

Thoughtful and constructive comments, MacClintick, thank you.
I failed to note one paragraph from Jayne where we had an identity of view: "The timps were thunderously dominant - even a bit OTT I thought (the room shook....wonder what it was like in the hall) which for me only underlined the uncertainty of the ensemble. Perhaps they haven't played it with this conductor very often."
The same was true in the finale of the DSCH in the previous Prom.

The balance between the instruments is down to the recording engineers who are preparing the broadcast. If the timps are too loud if spot miked they should be able to be toned down.

[Ein Heldenleben]

On a technical note it’s difficult to control the level of the timp sound in a microphonal sound balance as it’s being relayed They put out an incredible amount of sound energy and the sound is omni-directional. The timps probably won’t have been spot miked (though maybe those in the hall can correct me ) so the sound you are hearing is being picked up by the main mikes - that means there is no independent electronic control over the timps within the mix. The only solution is to put an acoustic screen around the timps or for the player to hit them less hard or perhaps change the way the main mikes are configured - though that will have a knock on effect on other elements of the balance .
For reasons we don’t quite understand the human ear (and ,crucially, brain) in the hall doesn’t respond to sound in quite the same way as a microphone so the timps in the hall could have been as ‘objectively’ loud but an audience member can , in some way , compensate for that . Equally the timps could have been too loud in the hall because of placement or because of an over enthusiastic player. Unlikely because YNS strikes me as something of a stickler for balance .
Of course I could be completely wrong but if the timps had been in some way individually miked the engineer would definitely have controlled the level to produce a satisfying overall balance.

[teamsaint]

On a technical note it’s difficult to control the level of the timp sound in a microphonal sound balance as it’s being relayed They put out an incredible amount of sound energy and the sound is omni-directional. The timps probably won’t have been spot miked (though maybe those in the hall can correct me ) so the sound you are hearing is being picked up by the main mikes - that means there is no independent electronic control over the timps within the mix. The only solution is to put an acoustic screen around the timps or for the player to hit them less hard or perhaps change the way the main mikes are configured - though that will have a knock on effect on other elements of the balance .
For reasons we don’t quite understand the human ear (and ,crucially, brain) in the hall doesn’t respond to sound in quite the same way as a microphone so the timps in the hall could have been as ‘objectively’ loud but an audience member can , in some way , compensate for that . Equally the timps could have been too loud in the hall because of placement or because of an over enthusiastic player. Unlikely because YNS strikes me as something of a stickler for balance .
Of course I could be completely wrong but if the timps had been in some way individually miked the engineer would definitely have controlled the level to produce a satisfying overall balance.

I didn't think the timps were overbearing in the hall, which probably bears out what you said.

[mathias broucek]

We bought tickets at the last minute as we've always want to hear Shaham live! Tickets were $$$$

Can't add much to Jayne's observations on the Sibelius. Orchestra not secure in i or iii (the latter due to tempo). Liked the risk-taking approach but a net honourable fail, I'd say. The timps were loud but not crazily so.

Prokofiev was excellent. Shaham so musical and so relaxed. Orchestra could have been quieter at times. Appeared (rather than sounded) under-rehearsed based on how closely Shaham was leaning in to the conductor

Rosenkavalier was outstanding.

Valse Triste a genius choice to reconcile the first and last pieces. And what a string section!

[DracoM]

My very UNtechnical guess would be that they knew from rehearsals what the tymps were going to be in the Sibelius et al - i.e. as I described them 'thunderous', - and in that RAH acoustic as we know well, ubiquitous more than in many halls - so they had had to tone things down from the start.

Which is maybe why there have been comments about the acoustic perspective in toto.

Just a thought?

[Ein Heldenleben]

And a good thought but ...timps (and bass drums in rock mixes ) are a notorious challenge . Just to run through a few particular scenarios-
The acoustic changes when the hall fills up (definitely) and when the air temp changes.
The timp player might have hit the timps harder in perf than in reh.
The timps were just as loud in rehearsal but putting an acoustic screen in was deemed to impact on the hall sound too much or was aesthetically unacceptable .
Altering the polar diagram of the main mics which might ( and only might - the timps produce omni directional sound waves) have reduced the timp volume but then possibly compromised the overall sound too much. I’ve got a feeling that with these expensive soundfield mikes you can do this live or during the recording but it alters the overall balance .
One option would be to multi mic the entire orchestra and keep the timps well back in the mix but a lot of sound engineers and producers don’t like that overall artificial effect (and nor would a lot of forumites ) , you need a lot of mics and it’s risky live as mics , cables and connectors fail all the time.There probably isn’t the capacity to double mic every instrument / string desk .

On the other hand they could as you have suggested just got the mix wrong - it does happen . I would have thought doing a live orchestral relay from the RAH on a hot night is one hell of a demanding gig...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just carefully listened to first movt aga8n having been some distance from my hi fi last night.
Honestly don’t think the timps were too loud except possibly in the second climatic tutti of the main theme . Thought the timp player was tremendous any way so I gladly retract all my hypotheses above .
I thought it was a lovely balance overall : beautiful string sound , lots of woodwind detail , very good stereo image . Thought I might at one point heard a bit of a fade up on the harp but come on....
The string sound in the second movt is wonderful....
All in all a triumph

[alywin]

Hmm....
I had a few problems with the Sibelius 1...

A cautiously played opening section, the 1st climax sounded laboured, the orchestra uneasy, as if unsure of the direction. Ragged brass.
The timps were thunderously dominant - even a bit OTT I thought (the room shook....wonder what it was like in the hall) which for me only underlined the uncertainty of the ensemble.

It was very loud! "Blimey!" I thought, as the gallery floor shook under me (and I wasn't even lying down at the time). I wasn't terribly taken with the Sibelius either, but then I may not have been in a very receptive mood last night. I'll try watching again on the 30th and see what I think.

[mathias broucek]

It was very loud! "Blimey!" I thought, as the gallery floor shook under me (and I wasn't even lying down at the time). I wasn't terribly taken with the Sibelius either, but then I may not have been in a very receptive mood last night. I'll try watching again on the 30th and see what I think.

I was in a box (5pm if conductor at 12) - very few seats left when I booked. Timps loud but within an acceptable range. However the Sibelius was the least successful performance IMHO. Ensemble was imperfect and some of the interventionist tactics from YNS weren't necessarily convincing. But the concert got better with each item...

[johnb]

I think the problem with the timps (on R3) was not only that they were rather loud but (mostly) that their sound, as captured by the engineers, was very ill defined ("thunderous" as others have said). Pity - it marred an otherwise very enjoyable performance.