Prom 20: Pekka Kuusisto and the BBC SSO - 3.08.19

[LeMartinPecheur]

This one should be right up pastoralguy's street!

Did anyone else listen to Pekka Kuusisto’s playing in the concerto with Ida Haendel's at the start of the 3rd mov't, as just heard on Record Review, with Ancerl c1957, still ringing in their ears? A huge contrast in terms of technical perfection, but she didn't short-change the icy, steely emotion at all - her playing was somehow completely above and beyond virtuosity. Kuusisto's sounded very hairy round the edges in a way that could pass for deep emotional commitment but it just made me want even faster delivery of the Supraphon box...


....always assuming someone takes note of its going straight onto my birthday prezzie list

[Constantbee]

[COLOR=#272727]Credit to them for inventiveness but here at home at least, the folksong-led presentation didn't work for me....more a distraction really.... a live aspect which may have been great in the hall, but....I found it hard to get involved subsequently...I became so fed up (humidity and cat-management played its part too) that I took off for the woods during the Violin Concerto....

Yep. Didn't work for me, either, I'm. Struggling to concentrate at the start I thought either the proms guide had got it wrong or the Roberts iStream needed retuning again

[Cockney Sparrow]

This one should be right up pastoralguy's street!

Did anyone else listen to Pekka Kuusisto’s playing in the concerto with Ida Haendel's at the start of the 3rd mov't, as just heard on Record Review, with Ancerl c1957, still ringing in their ears? A huge contrast in terms of technical perfection, but she didn't short-change the icy, steely emotion at all - her playing was somehow completely above and beyond virtuosity. Kuusisto's sounded very hairy round the edges in a way that could pass for deep emotional commitment but it just made me want even faster delivery of the Supraphon box...


....always someone takes note of its going straight onto my birthday prezzie list

The 5 CD set can be heard on Naxos Music Library* (PDF of the back cover, but not booklet, available):
Violin Recital: Haendel, Ida - BEETHOVEN, L. van / WIENIAWSKI, H. / STRAVINSKY, I. / BARTÓK, B. (Prague Recordings) (1957-1965)
Catalogue No.: SU4162-2
There is another disc:
Violin Recital: Haendel, Ida - GLAZUNOV, A.K. / WIENIAWSKI, H. / STRAVINSKY, I. / TARTINI, G. (Ida Haendel in Prague)
Catalogue No.: SU3782-2

* #16 : http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...-library/page2

[alywin]

[COLOR=#272727]
The almost-segueing of the folk-prelude-fantasy into the 1915 Symphony No.5 meant that the surprise of the missing horn call was diminished - always startles me however often I hear the Vanska disc. (I've heard Part 2 of the concert twice now, and still don't quite get the point of the prelude, given so much direct orchestral quotation from the symphony itself.....it might have worked better without those, with just singers, sparse accompaniment & violin...)

Is the Vanska disc the one which comes complete with a health warning that it may overwhelm your speakers, or something? I know there was one I never borrowed from the library when I was getting into Sibelius precisely because I wasn't sure my system could cope. I actually quite liked the folky bits, but certainly in the symphony they were a bit distracting because, not knowing the work in that form, I found it difficult to work out what was actually part of the symphony and what wasn't. I liked it better in the concerto. But a very good concert, none the less. I did miss my swans, though ...

[Bryn]

Is the Vanska disc the one which comes complete with a health warning that it may overwhelm your speakers, or something? I know there was one I never borrowed from the library when I was getting into Sibelius precisely because I wasn't sure my system could cope. I actually quite liked the folky bits, but certainly in the symphony they were a bit distracting because, not knowing the work in that form, I found it difficult to work out what was actually part of the symphony and what wasn't. I liked it better in the concerto. But a very good concert, none the less. I did miss my swans, though ...

That warning is found on many BIS CDs. The point of it is that BIS offers a very wide dynamic range. Those used to the dynamic compression some other record labels use might set their volume level too high, based on the low level of quiet passages. If you set the volume knob as per usual, rather than turning it up, you should be o.k.

[johnb]

That warning is found on many BIS CDs. The point of it is that BIS offers a very wide dynamic range. Those used to the dynamic compression some other record labels use might set their volume level too high, based on the low level of quiet passages. If you set the volume knob as per usual, rather than turning it up, you should be o.k.

Well, with the one BIS I have that has the health warning splashed over it that I checked, the reason isn't so much the wide dynamic range as the employment of techniques more usually seen in pop music - i.e. increasing the levels so that the climax peaks are pushed into hard limiting.

As I posted in 2013:

I have great respect for JLW and after reading her praise for Chung with the Gothenburg SO [Neilsen Symphonies] I bought their recordings of Nos 2 and 3 cheaply, second hand, from Amazon. My first reaction when I played No 3 was "Bloody hell, this is loud". I had to set my volume control at a much lower level than I can ever remember.

Now, we all know that CDs have a maximum level which can't be surpassed so I had a very strong feeling as to what was going on - and, after looking at the ripped files in Soundforge, found I was right.

The only way to make something sound that loud is to boost up the loud passages and then use limiting (i.e. truncate the tops and bottoms of the waveforms). In fact, looking at the waveform and using Soundforge's clipping detector, it turns out that all the loud passages are pushed heavily into hard clipping. Not good! They can get away with it because the audible effects of the clipping are masked by rasp of the fortissimo brass.

I really disliked the disc. I found it tiring to listen to. It was rather like being battered around the ears for 38 minutes (something Nielsen can do very well on his own, without BIS's assistance). It was a relief to turn to Blomstedt's recording which has very much more natural and believable audio perspective. (I also preferred the performance.)

I now avoid those discs like the plague.

[Bryn]

The maximum peak of any CD recording should, and normally does approach close to, or touch, 0dB. For a recording producer to approach the job otherwise would waste valuable quantization bits. It is indeed, as I stated, the dynamic range which particularly characterises BIS recordings. Rip a few complete CDs from different labels and check the maximum peak level. I think you will find the peaks to be as I claim. Occasionally, with generally very quiet music, say by Morton Feldman, the performers will request a lower peak level but such situations very much constitute the exception.

[johnb]

Bryn,

I have ripped many discs - in fact all of them - and I am well aware that "The maximum peak of any CD recording should, and normally does approach close to, or touch, 0dB"

If you think about it - if a recording has an unusually wide dynamic range the average volume level (i.e. the average rms) would be lower (all other things being equal) - not higher as with the BIS discs with the health warnings.

I repeat, with the BIS disc carrying the health warning that I checked - the reason that it sounded amazingly loud was that the volume levels were greatly increased, pushing the climaxes heavily into hard clipping (and coarsening the sound as a result).

If you would like me to post examples I am happy to do so.

[Later Edit]
Rather than disrupt this thread with examples, I'm posting a link to screen shots illustrating the Chung Nielsen Symphony No 3 1st movement, with Blomstedt as a comparison:

https://app.box.com/s/tloa0rdnbir7st503fx4pek0cods6djf

[Bryn]

Bryn,

I have ripped many discs - in fact all of them - and I am well aware that "The maximum peak of any CD recording should, and normally does approach close to, or touch, 0dB"

If you think about it - if a recording has an unusually wide dynamic range the average volume level (i.e. the average rms) would be lower (all other things being equal) - not higher as with the BIS discs with the health warnings.

I repeat, with the BIS disc carrying the health warning that I checked - the reason that it sounded amazingly loud was that the volume levels were greatly increased, pushing the climaxes heavily into hard clipping (and coarsening the sound as a result).

If you would like me to post examples I am happy to do so.

[Later Edit]
Rather than disrupt this thread with examples, I'm posting a link to screen shots illustrating the Chung Nielsen Symphony No 3 1st movement, with Blomstedt as a comparison:
https://app.box.com/s/tloa0rdnbir7st503fx4pek0cods6djf

My experience of ripping BIS discs is precisely the oposite of what you apparently find. Since the very same performance is not going to be available for comparison between labels, one has to rely on different perfromances of the same work. Here, I generally find the RMS level for the same maximum peak to be lower with BIS releases. It's an essential part of the Robert von Bahr ethos.

[Bryn]

The BBC Four version is still not available on the iPlayer, whereas the Angélique Kidjo Late Night Prom which followed it has been available for around an hour.

[johnb]

My experience of ripping BIS discs is precisely the oposite of what you apparently find. Since the very same performance is not going to be available for comparison between labels, one has to rely on different perfromances of the same work. Here, I generally find the RMS level for the same maximum peak to be lower with BIS releases. It's an essential part of the Robert von Bahr ethos.

Bryn, I am talking about one example of the BIS discs that have a big red speaker health warning splashed across them. These are quite differently engineered (and are deafeningly loud at normal volume control levels) to the usual BIS discs, which I have found excellent.

The screen shots I linked to are self explanatory.

[Bryn]

Bryn, I am talking about one example of the BIS discs that have a big red speaker health warning splashed across them. These are quite differently engineered (and are deafeningly loud at normal volume control levels) to the usual BIS discs, which I have found excellent.

The screen shots I linked to are self explanatory.

What method did you employ to rip those examples? I do not have the Chung Nielsen, so cannot rip them with EAC for comparison. I will, however, try other BIS CDs with dynamic warnings on them, but not tonight.

[I see that the Chung Nielsen Third was AMcG's BaL choice in 2015. Though I do not have the recording, I was thus determined to investigate. So, against my usual practice, I sampled the opening section from an online lossless stream using TR (set to -1dB to make sure no clipping artefacts were introduced). Sure enough, the examples you posted showed up. Frankly, I was gobsmacked. How these got past Robert Von Bahr's quality control defeats me. The clipping goes against everything he stands for regarding recording dynamic fidelity. Dynamic limiting would be bad enough, as in the 2011 Prom season in Radio 3's 'HD Sound' for the early concerts including The Gothic and the Glagolitic Mass. Hyperion did what they could with what the Beeb presented them with but the blatant evidence of severe dynamic limiting remains on their CD issue of The Gothic. Back to the Chung Nielsen, clipping is bad enough in itself but it should not have been permitted to get as far as a CD. The Chung recordings date from the fairly early years of digital recordings (the early 1980s) but they have since been re-issued, and the opportunity should have been taken to 'repair' any clipping, an easy enough job with any decent modern DAW. So, with regard to these particular early digital recordings, you have hit the nail on the head. The resulting distortion should have been ameliorated via the use of a suitable clipping repair algorithm. However, I would add that I have found no similar problems with any post late '80s BIS recordings.]

[ANON]

Struggling to concentrate at the start

Had a play along with it today, (downloaded) as I didn't hear it live.

The first movement is taken very slow which has its dangers.
It's especially noticeable between figure 1/ and 2/ (the fast Largamente G string passage).

The 2nd movement is taken extremely slow, and in the 3rd movement there was some less than perfect passage work (not that it matters).
I believe the soloist was attempting a real theme of "sehnsucht" throughout, which despite a wide vibrato I thought was very convincing.

TBH I can't compare with recordings.
Live and recordings are 2 totally different things unless you happen to be Milstein or Heifetz.

[jayne lee wilson]

Bryn, I am talking about one example of the BIS discs that have a big red speaker health warning splashed across them. These are quite differently engineered (and are deafeningly loud at normal volume control levels) to the usual BIS discs, which I have found excellent.

The screen shots I linked to are self explanatory.

I dug out the wav download I had of this Chung Nielsen 3rd (i) and managed to view it in Audacity, which does appear to confirm your measurements.
(I haven't used this (or any such) suite very often, it isn't exactly intuitive but is very comprehensive but I finally found my way around..., I don't think I made any mistakes...
This was a different issue though, CD-615 c/w No.5 from the 3-disc set (with no warnings...!)
It's possible some of the several issues/recouplings sound different.
Comparing a later BIS 3rd, the stunning Oramo, shows again very wide DR but - one the stays the right side of the line!
I recall after we discussed this back then, I tried to analyse it in JRiver with clipping protection switched off. I kept getting a peak reading of -0.4db, which seemed OK - but unsure of my ability to use such things and noting your analysis, I was suspicious of my own readings and I didn't take this any further.

***

When I got the Chung CD in the late 90s on the strength of many very enthusiastic reviews, I had a far less revealing system usually listened to at modest volumes. So I wouldn't have noticed any problem, especially as it sounds fierce rather than overtly distorted, and one tends to expect a Nielsen 3rd (i) to reap the whirlwind! (And scrutinising the Audacity graph now, after the first movement, it only appears to hit 0db briefly in the middle and end of the finale, so back then I would have simply accepted it, on reviewers' trust at the time, blaming my own modest system if I heard things I didn't like.).
Latterly I haven't heard it much, but usually have pure-impulse-response/early-roll-off filters switched in on the DAC, again somewhat taking the edge off the ferocity of such a balance.

Now? It sounds fierce, very loud, but listenable, if sometimes uncomfortably, at a slightly reduced volume. I still don't pick up any overt distortions.
But there's far more choice in this work now - even on a purely musical basis, I'd take Oramo, P-Jarvi and Gilbert over the rocket-fuelled Chung these days...

***
(Back OT - no problem subjectively with the Vanska 1915 5th, c/w the original En Saga, which is firmly recommended! There are other c/ws in various boxes, single albums etc)

[Anastasius]

Magical in the hall too. And Pekka Kuusisto’s playing in the concerto was spellbinding. One of those occasions when it felt that the audience was holding its collective breath. The first prom I’ve attended this season, and I’m glad I did, especially as it wasn’t televised as it deserved to be.

I am so jealous. That was one of the best Violin Concerto performances I have ever heard. Stunning. And best of all, the SlappyHappyClappers stayed away.