Prom 25: Tchaikovsky, Sibelius & Weinberg - 6.08.19

[edashtav]

Indeed, and a nice gesture of SG to include 3 cellists from the BBC SO. I wonder if this seems to be an increasing trend with encores in symphony concerts, as Simon Trpceski has also done this quite often of late with post-concerto encores in symphony concerts. […]
One other point to note is something where other presenters can learn from Petroc, namely that Petroc never editorializes about the performance. Points to him for that.

Enjoyable interval discussion about Tchaikovsky's letters now.

I appreciate your analytical remarks, bsp.

[edashtav]

Yes, and forgive me for straying beyond this thread, but it's maybe worth saying (IMV) that the same goes for Donald Macleod currently in Edinburgh.

[ANON]

I remain convinced a non Russian orchestra or orchestra and conductor are incapable of giving the degree of gravitas required for this great Russian masterpiece.

This was yet another "orchestra going thru the motions" as they have 100s of times.
Perfect phrasing, tempos a little fast, but completely unconvincing and not moving.

A real Pathetique is:- like a good shakespeare tragedy, you feel like you just died!

[ARBurton]

I remain convinced a non Russian orchestra or orchestra and conductor are incapable of giving the degree of gravitas required for this great Russian masterpiece.

Even Herr Furtwangler and his Berliners?

[ANON]

I was thinking of much more recently,- Slava's incredible performances with the London Phil. (1976) Tbh.
(were recorded on EMI after the event)

[edashtav]

I remain convinced a non Russian orchestra or orchestra and conductor are incapable of giving the degree of gravitas required for this great Russian masterpiece.

This was yet another "orchestra going thru the motions" as they have 100s of times.
Perfect phrasing, tempos a little fast, but completely unconvincing and not moving.

A real Pathetique is:- like a good shakespeare tragedy, you feel like you just died!

I'm pretty much in agreement, EST1, and fear that you're right that tempi were too quick (first night nerves?)

However, I did detect a loosening of Dalia's grip in the finale and two moments: one of orchestral liquescence, another of a throbbing 'black' rhythm from the basses convinced me that Stasevska has got 'it'.

[gedsmk]

I remain convinced a non Russian orchestra or orchestra and conductor are incapable of giving the degree of gravitas required for this great Russian masterpiece.

This was yet another "orchestra going thru the motions" as they have 100s of times.
Perfect phrasing, tempos a little fast, but completely unconvincing and not moving.

A real Pathetique is:- like a good shakespeare tragedy, you feel like you just died!

I seem to remember Jansons managing this at a prom. But this evening it felt like most holds were barred. Nothing was off the cliff, no risks were taken.

[ANON]

Gotta say the 5/4 movement sounded very much like a piece of ballet music last eve.

I have lived thru doing this with Roderick Brydon.
UNFORGETTABLE (- it was only years after
I discovered he was working with Celibidache just prior to that).....
I remember Brydon's comments all my life in that clipped Edinburgh accent "never be afraid of a GOOD TUNE".

Of course Sergiu was renowned for his slow tempos....of course his comments about rehearsing with British orchestras were also unforgettable,- so on target for last night, preceded by the BBC giant hype and spin.

So, although SC never did the 6th,(as far as I know), he came straight out of the Furtwangler mold, with a mathematical brilliance & Romanian passion that certainly would have been worth hearing.

So, to sum up, these last few days we had a Sibelius concerto which was WAAAAYYY too slow (The 2nd movt is almost unplayable that slow), and now an UBER-Brisk Tchaik 6th, preceded by a pre concert talk obsessed by Tchaikovski's sexual life (hey it's the social network & zombie phone era now init!), completely ignoring the historical and artistic btw. (not a single mention of the Tsar, and not even a passing mention of Tchaikovski's sine qua non patron Nadezhda Filaretovna (von Meck)

(She died from tuberculosis on January 13, 1894 in Nice, in the south of France, barely two months after Tchaikovsky's).
I mean, did you know most of Tchaikovski's life was financed by Russian railways, - ordered to be built by Tsar Alexander*,- the 1874 vision of Vauxhall station in London interring that name into Russian language forever.

It kinda reminds me of going to a Toulouse Lautrec exhibition without looking at the paintings.

The Mass media fest at its very worst.
Pathetic.
What great taste, preceded by a comment from the conductor pre-concert which illustrated her superficiality perfectly!


*assassinated in 1881 a huge trauma lived in St Petersburg.
Karl Von Meck died in 1876, leaving his entire fortune to his wife and family.

[Sir Velo]

I was going to give this one a miss - but now you've really whetted my appetite!

[BBMmk2]

Another catch up. A friend popped over, unannounced! I like having friends round, but this one comes unannounced, he’s always done it. The trouble is he doesn’t like classical music very much!

[ANON]

I forgot about the 3rd movement where the ensemble playing was anything but perfect.
It's true, many an orchestra can come unstuck in this movement, compounded here by the massive delays caused by RAH, and the apparent inability of certain sections of the orchestra to be able to hear what's going on in all the racket.

Usual criticism of the BBC sound applies.
The majority of the wind section -especially the clarinets/flutes, pas "la meme plan sonore" compared with the rest of the orchestra, and very poor localisation in general.
The wind is being sent to us on a postcard.

I struggle to work out what this is due to.
Microphone placement, errors in the time-space basis, cancellation caused by the multi set-up, the sheer scale of the RAH, too much compression in some of the channels, or simply plain errors in the sound architecture, favouring the "British BBC" tradition of "big strings", and "softed out wind ensemble.

I know this would not happen in France or Germany, but they don't have anything close to PROM seasons to manage, and the general BBC sound is light years better than anything in Eastern Europe.

[Maclintick]

No time to post after the concert, I'm afraid, & necessarily brief this morning. RAH 100% full & extremely enthusiastic -- I don't think I've ever attended a live "Pathétique" where the audience has failed to explode at the end of the march, & similarly with Dalia & BBCSO's roof-raising performance last night. Tchaik on the swift side, to be sure, but not dissimilar to Mravinsky at around 43' -- it tends to be certain self-regarding Western stick-wavers who drag out the last movement interminably....

Weinberg new to me -- this concerto noodles along very pleasantly in a tonal idiom which brought to mind, at various junctures, a folkier Hindemith or Nielsen, & even Falla, but I could discern little influence of Weinberg's friend Shostakovich (Ed & others may provide enlightenment here). Beautifully played by Sol Gabetta, though not without a tendency to rush her fences at times. Dalia was alert & kept things moving. The Karelia suite built impressively to a rousing Alla Marcia, & the cor anglais player got a bow for her solo at the end of the Ballade.

[ANON]

RAH 100% full & extremely enthusiastic -- I don't think I've ever attended a live "Pathétique" where the audience has failed to explode at the end of the march, .... not dissimilar to Mravinsky at around 43' -the cor anglais player got a bow for her solo at the end of the Ballade.

Which confirms my belief the proms is more about the packaging than content.
Spectacle/Entertainment/Showcasing & superficiality instead of in depth performance

Barenboim was the exception of course with his memorable RING, and Martha when she comes to play.
The exceptions prove the rule.

You want to compare Mravinski & his wonderful orchestra playing with last night?
It wasn't even close.

Let's hope the Welsh come up with a little more originality tonight in the requiem and a fresh Wagner true to their WNO instincts.

[jayne lee wilson]

EST in #23.....
"So, although SC never did the 6th,(as far as I know), he came straight out of the Furtwangler mold, with a mathematical brilliance & Romanian passion that certainly would have been worth hearing."

For your pleasure, EST1.......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-No-6-Pyotr-Ilyich/dp/B000002RZK/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=tchaikovsky+celibidache&qid=1565185526&s=music&sr=1-2

https://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-No-Celibidache/dp/B000002RZK

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/tchaikovsky-symphony-no-6-sergiu-celibidache/0724355652355

I'll try to catch up with this Proms 6th later, the first part of tonight's Prom hitting the nadir of over-familiarity...back for the Mozart tonight live though, Mozart HUGE for me just now, more for the chamber music but the requiem always compels in whatever arrangement.......

(I do hope Stutzmann is Historically Informed...suitably trimmed orchestra, reduced chorus...can't bear my Mozart in massive Romantic Tchaikovskian adaptations...back in the cinema with Amadeus...)

[Anastasius]

I must check my copy of the score as I could have sworn that Tchaikovsky didn't score for manic and untimely applause after the 3rd movement.

I blame the BBC especially In(essential) Classics for just playing single movements. That's what you get...an audience thinking it's finished. Wossat ? You mean there's more ?