Prom 25: Tchaikovsky, Sibelius & Weinberg - 6.08.19

[Maclintick]

There is a short motif which occurs in this work and also in DSCH's Young Guard film score. However, the works are contemporary, and the two composers played their music to each other as they composed. The same motif is vital to DSCH's First Cello Concerto. Is it useful to think of RVW and Holst? They shared ideas but their finished compositions are quite different. DSCH was never a teacher of Weinberg. The influences go in both directions. Russian commentators have 'blamed' Weinberg for DSCH's 'Jewish' works. The main theme of the 3rd movement of Weinberg's Cello Concerto could have been composed and scored by DSCH, don't you feel?

Very interesting, Ed, & many thanks. I haven't quoted your excellent post in full, but will have to Listen Again to respond to your question re the influence of DSCH on the 3rd movt -- this obviously didn't strike me last night...

[ANON]

.. If you argue your point ad infinitum then we will have picnics in the Gallery, BBQ's in the stalls and an orgy in the Arena ! .... fed by the 'new' transmogrified Roger Wight's abomination of Radio 3 that music consists of snippets.

YEA or go to Richie Branson's instead.

[Simon B]

Thing is, those noting that t'"Pathetique" is a special case are spot on... From plentiful anecdotal experience anyhow.

I reckon I've managed 25 live 'uns over the years, all over the place. Many were long before the current vogue for applauding between every movement of everything took hold, particularly at the Proms.

Most have long since slipped the memory, but two stand out - for being the only ones without immediate thunderous applause at the end of III. One was as dull as ditchwater and conveyed all the manic hysteria of a damp November Thursday in Penge at around the time that daylight gives up in despair. The other attained this feat by being conducted by Vladimir Jurowski who spoke beforehand at considerable length largely to make a plea to desist. He used the clever ploy of noting that an audience as sophisticated as the LPO's in London would surely be above indulging in such a barbarous tradition - however inaccurately.

In general, this omni-applause trend gets on my wick - other opinions are available - but is all too understandable in this piece. That said, the performance in question here seemed far too cautious and reigned in to really hit the spot. The Swan Lake excerpts the night before were closer to the genuine article.

For a "Pathetique" at the Proms with a real grip we have to go back quite a long way IMO - to Gergiev and the LSO at the start of his tenure (before it all unravelled rather). What happened there at the end of III (played at about twice the speed and volume and three times the ferocity of most subsequent efforts)? Thunderous applause - into which Gergiev crashed almost immediately with the start of IV. Probably 15 years ago - not a recent phenomenon.

Meanwhile, as you were, get the focus back onto the important business of hurling invective and tearing lumps out of each other on the bottom half of the internet

[Dave2002]

We'd probably get on well if we met socially, but this internet madness is irresistible to some people....usually male aggressive arrogant people...especially those who aren't even brave enough to post under their own name......

In the early days of the BBC msg boards some (all/most?) of us did use our real names, but eventually the BBC decided, perhaps rightly, that that wasn't always a good idea, and we were encouraged to choose new ones. Some of us kept the names when we migrated to this For3 area.

I assume that you really are who you purport to be, but I can also point out that some who post in these areas use plausible names, but they are not their own. I'm not going to identify them.

The decision to suggest that people should not use their own identifiable names was perhaps sensible - given the way that the internet has developed.

I do share your reservations about one of our newer members. Who is he/she? Is he/she a committee? Really based in Russia? Who knows?

[Dave2002]

https://youtu.be/p_c6uQHlhZ0

[jayne lee wilson]

No, you can help with this.

I just resent being hinted at as a faker.
Do that, and you get a knee jerk reaction.

This forum is primarily for sharing love, knowledge and passion for music.... all you share is an adoration of yourself....if invective is your drug I would suggest twitter....(the clue is in the first four letters..... over and out...)

[oddoneout]

Music is a subjective experience. One listener's exquisitely crafted performance is another's tedious playing by numbers. A wealth of knowledge and experience doesn't automatically make one person's opinion right; it makes it better informed and possibly less subjective.

[Bryn]

In the early days of the BBC msg boards some (all/most?) of us did use our real names, but eventually the BBC decided, perhaps rightly, that that wasn't always a good idea, and we were encouraged to choose new ones. Some of us kept the names when we migrated to this For3 area.

I assume that you really are who you purport to be, but I can also point out that some who post in these areas use plausible names, but they are not their own. I'm not going to identify them.

The decision to suggest that people should not use their own identifiable names was perhaps sensible - given the way that the internet has developed.

I do share your reservations about one of our newer members. Who is he/she? Is he/she a committee? Really based in Russia? Who knows?

Said new contributor has given quite enough information for those interested to be able to track down his or her identity. After all, how many beech engineers who work on racing cars (свуковый инженер / гоночный автомобиль тек) does one come across?

[doversoul1]

We have said more than once on this forum Don’t feed trolls.

[vinteuil]

beech engineers (свуковый инженер)

Bryn - have tried to send you a pm but your in-box is over-full....


.

[Bryn]

Bryn - have tried to send you a pm but your in-box is over-full....

That's what comes of unwarranted popularity . I have now made a little room for new messages. The mailbox has been a little busy of late.

[Maclintick]

The main theme of the 3rd movement of Weinberg's Cello Concerto could have been composed and scored by DSCH, don't you feel?

Ed, yes, I see what you mean, especially in some of the woodwind stabs accompanying the initial cello entry, but the rumbustious opening could as easily be Nielsen's rustic band on Fyn...

Overall, I feel there's a harmonic bite and subtlety characteristic of DSCH which isn't present here to anything like the same degree -- a bit more needle ? The simple but effective way the Jewish folk elements are incorporated into Weinberg's concerto strike me more as having kinship with, say, the one by Khachaturian, infused with the Armenian equivalent of Klezmer. If Weinberg's score didn't quote Jewish themes, it'd probably qualify as Soviet Realism, hence the trouble with the apparatchiks.

[edashtav]

Ed, yes, I see what you mean, especially in some of the woodwind stabs accompanying the initial cello entry, but the rumbustious opening could as easily be Nielsen's rustic band on Fyn...

Overall, I feel there's a harmonic bite and subtlety characteristic of DSCH which isn't present here to anything like the same degree -- a bit more needle ? The simple but effective way the Jewish folk elements are incorporated into Weinberg's concerto strike me more as having kinship with, say, the one by Khachaturian, infused with the Armenian equivalent of Klezmer. If Weinberg's score didn't quote Jewish themes, it'd probably qualify as Soviet Realism, hence the trouble with the apparatchiks.

Yes, I can hear your Nielsen inflections, Maclintick, and I think your Klezmer associations are spot-on, too. Apparently, Weinberg was happy to own Mendelssohnian roots but they were not so obvious.

[Maclintick]

Yes, I can hear your Nielsen inflections, Maclintick, and I think your Klezmer associations are spot-on, too. Apparently, Weinberg was happy to own Mendelssohnian roots but they were not so obvious.

This is how composers grow, surely -- rejecting and assimilating as they mature. Prokofiev faced veiled & not-so-veiled criticism for "Mendelssohnisms" in his 1st violin concerto, which now strike one as motivated by extra-musical prejudices, shall we say ...There is a compositional continuum.

[johnb]

When I first heard the Weinberg concerto I was reminded of the first movement of the (gorgeous) Myaskovsky Cello Concerto - they both start with a lyrical cello line over a pulsating bass.