Prom 47: Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra - 23.08.19

[Simon B]

This came across to me as soft-focus Bruckner, as though through a warm autumnal mist. Especially so the first two movements. Things improved rather with the slow movement - because it can take this approach better.

I attributed the relative lack of punch from the brass as mainly due to the layout (all the brass on the "wrong" side of the stage for me) and the inherent rich rotund aristocratic sound this orchestra is renowned for.

Nelsons did Bruckner 4 with the CBSO a year or two back and his approach seemed much more in sympathy with the work - aptly often labelled "The Romantic" IIRC.

This is of course all just personal reaction free of any real information, and as often the case ends up being an assessment of how closely a given performance aligns with the listener's preconceptions.

Personally I'm looking for a Bruckner 8 to be much further down the severe and apocalyptic axis - this wasn't.

I always re-arrive at the conclusion that Nelsons is almost without current peer (Thielemann excepted) as a conductor of Richard Strauss. Any music which lends itself to being made to sound a bit like that (which has included quite a lot of Wagner, some Mahler, even some Shostakovich - e.g. the filmic 11th) will be fine. Otherwise, your mileage may vary as they say...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Out of interest, would Bruckner have ever performed Bach's liturgical works, bearing in mind the Lutheran/Catholic differences.

IIRC from an old COTW, Bruckner sneaked into a cathedral in disguise, not daring to show his face (perhaps in Lübeck?) so he could listen to Bach's chorales.

I know this is a bit ‘All Greeks are Philosophers” but Liszt was a ( sort of ) Catholic who definitely played and arranged Bach on the Organ so is it reasonable to assume that Bruckner played Bach? Or was Liszt simply indifferent to the concerns of contemporary Catholicism and as the worlds most successful freelance able to do exactly what he liked ? Bruckner perhaps had to toe the line a bit.
PS In the dim watches of the night don’t organists play more or less exactly what they want ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bach, Handel, and Medelssohn were all in Bruckner's repertory as an organist - they all featured prominently, for example, in his Crystal palace recitals when he visited London in 1871. Whether or not he played the works as part of a Church Service, I don't know. I don't think that he would've performed the Cantatas, if that's what Flay was meaning by "liturgical works" - and certainly not as part of a service - as I don't think (I might well be wrong) he had the necessary players at his disposal?

[edashtav]

John Williamson in his Bruckner Companion (2004) quotes contemporary evidence that indicates AB knew JSB only through chorales and keyboard music up to 1855 and his studies with Simon Sechter.

[edashtav]

Bach, Handel, and Medelssohn were all in Bruckner's repertory as an organist - they all featured prominently, for example, in his Crystal palace recitals when he visited London in 1871. Whether or not he played the works as part of a Church Service, I don't know. I don't think that he would've performed the Cantatas, if that's what Flay was meaning by "liturgical works" - and certainly not as part of a service - as I don't think (I might well be wrong) he had the necessary players at his disposal?

I want to question how much JSB and Handel Anton Bruckner actually played during his handful of Crystal Palace programmes, Ferney (& Flay). AB once said in a broad accent something like, "don't like churning out a load of Bach, I does as I like."

And.. AB doing as he liked meant a short fugue by JSB followed by one or more improvisations based on Bach's material. These were more massive ( almost on a path towards Sorabji ).

I sense that AB's Crystal Palace JSB offer was scraps of the old master followed by extended Brucknerian improvised movements.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Would Bruckner have been allowed to play Lutheran sacred music by the RC church authorities? I doubt it, but I don't know for certain.

In addition to his time as Church Organist at St Florian, Bruckner was later the Court Organist in Vienna, so his performing duties weren't exclusively devoted to Church services. (It was his fame as the Court Organists that got him the concerts in London, and in Paris - which were secular recitals.)

I've always thought prefacing Bruckner's 8th (and, indeed, his 5th) Symphony with bach organ Music is a very appropriate and generous idea: it fills out a programme (remember Karajan's last US performances with the VPO consisted of "only" the Symphony), makes impressively clear the connections between the two composers, and enables orchestra and conductor to focus on getting closer to the Symphony.

[Alison]

I’m looking forward to rehearing this Eighth though Richard Osborne’s remarks on the same conductors Seventh seem pertinent:

‘... the apparent inability of conductor Andris Nelsons to establish that all-commanding pulse without which the inner weave of the music, its constituent parts thematically and harmonically, cannot cohere’.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I want to question how much JSB and Handel Anton Bruckner actually played during his handful of Crystal Palace programmes, Ferney (& Flay). AB once said in a broad accent something like, "don't like churning out a load of Bach, I does as I like."
And.. AB doing as he liked meant a short fugue by JSB followed by one or more improvisations based on Bach's material. These were more massive ( almost on a path towards Sorabji ).
I sense that AB's Crystal Palace JSB offer was scraps of the old master followed by extended Brucknerian improvised movements.

There is evidence to support your sense, ed - although no critic reported on the Crystal Palace recitals in the press (something that considerably miffed the preformer - so much so that he wrote to the Austrian ambassador to see if he couldn't get at least one reviewer along!) there was a general overview of Summer organ recitals [not just those by Bruckner] in The Orchestra in which the reviewer commented:

We were told that "Herr Bruckner's strong points are classical improvisations on the works of Handel, Bach, & Mendelssohn". He has given us a grand extempore Fantasia, which, although not very original in thought or design, was clever, remarkable for its canonic counterpoint, and for the surmounting of much difficulty in the pedal passages. There can be nothing said extempoaneously on the National Anthem of Austria, and still less on the Hallelujah Chorus of Handel; nor do we think any improvisations with any effect can begiven upon the Toccatas of Bach, or the Sonatas of Mendelssohn. Great composers exhaust their themes. Nothing can be added to the Hallelujah Chorus, nothing to a Bach Toccata ...

[Perspectives on Anton Bruckner ed Howie, p 308: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...london&f=false

In 1871, most critics were away on holiday in August, as Concert life in London was practically nil in those days (!) - and newspapers had plenty to fill their pages with reports about the Franco-Prussian War.

[Petrushka]

I found this performance oddly unsatisfying. I kept hoping it would take wing for me but it never quite did.

Nelsons has put on a lot off weight since I last saw him. For a fairly young man still, to see him lumbering to the podium tonight was quite a shock.

As so often on these Proms threads I find myself in agreement with Darkbloom. This Bruckner 8 was wonderfully played but Nelsons' Bruckner is still very much a 'work in progress' and it might well come to full maturity in another 10/15 years. Last night, I kept willing it to take wing but it obstinately refused to do so. From my seat in H stalls the harps, on the opposite side of the hall were audible.

I, too, was alarmed to see how much weight Nelsons has put on. He came lumbering on the stage like a bear putting me in mind of former Leipzig conductor, Kurt Masur. Hope there's no underlying health problem there. His podium manner seemed more restrained than I've noticed before with grand, sweeping gestures and occasional jabbing with the baton instead of the more micro-managed interpretation I've seen on previous occasions..

[jayne lee wilson]

I’m looking forward to rehearing this Eighth though Richard Osborne’s remarks on the same conductors Seventh seem pertinent:

‘The apparent inability of conductor Andris Nelsons to establish that all-commanding pulse without which the inner weave of the music, its constituent parts thematically and harmonically, cannot cohere’.

Kna, Andreae, Venzago and others don't necessarily need the "all-commanding pulse" (as established by Karajan sometimes, Wand usually, stop-go Jochum not so much...) to make sense of the music - to make it "cohere"....
There is that other more "provincial" (in the best sense) Schubertian/Wagnerian (especially with Kna) sonority, melody, drama and volatility....
So too the Berlin Staatskapelle, the Leipzig Gewandhaus...

It's a sunny day! Trying to keep track of the cricket , so....back to the cat(s) and the garden for now...

[Flay]

John Williamson in his Bruckner Companion (2004) quotes contemporary evidence that indicates AB knew JSB only through chorales and keyboard music up to 1855 and his studies with Simon Sechter.

Thanks for the interesting replies. His chorales (such as in the 4th symphony 1st movement) make me think that the amusing anecdote about his episode in disguise was quite likely. It's such a shame that religion can impact so greatly on lives (even if it has given us some wonderful music).

[edashtav]

Thanks for the interesting replies. His chorales (such as in the 4th symphony 1st movement) make me think that the amusing anecdote about his episode in disguise was quite likely. It's such a shame that religion can impact so greatly on lives (even if it has given us some wonderful music).

One further piece of evidence. Mosco Carner, in an article on AB's organ playing (Musical Times, 02.1937) gives a programme for Anton's first recital in London:
Toccata in F major (Bach)
Improvisation on the foregoing
Fugue in D minor (Handel)
Improvisations (original)
Improvisation on Fugue in E minor (Bach)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

His chorales (such as in the 4th symphony 1st movement) make me think that the amusing anecdote about his episode in disguise was quite likely.

I don't really think it should, Flay: studying Bach's four-part chorale was an integral part of the study with Sechter that ed refers to - the only reason he (or any other Music student of the time) would need to listen to them "in disguise" would be if they didn't know them intimately - because that would have risked the contempt and ridicule of his colleagues.

[Alison]

Where do you stand on pulse, Ferners?

[Flay]

- the only reason he (or any other Music student of the time) would need to listen to them "in disguise" would be if they didn't know them intimately - because that would have risked the contempt and ridicule of his colleagues.

Perhaps he wanted to experience the music in its proper setting, but did not dare show his face for risk of invoking Catholic wrath? I must try to find the reference if I still have that episode of COTW.