Prom 69: Boston Symphony Orchestra Bernstein and Shostakovich – 3.09.18

[Maclintick]

Shostakovich’s symphonies divide themselves into two groups in my mind:

A. #1,5,6,8,9,10,11,13,14 and 15... well loved and respected;
B. #2,3,4,7 and 12 ... leave me unsatisfied and critical.

Spot on, Ed -- but I'd leave out no 11 from the 'A' listing

[edashtav]

Spot on, Ed -- but I'd leave out no 11 from the 'A' listing

It nearly slipped!

[jayne lee wilson]

Shostakovich wrote several different types of symphony, with several modes or registers of expression. I think that's why they're often misunderstood.
I've tried to categorise these as :

Autobiographies: 1, 4-6 and 10.
War Symphonies: 7-9
Songs and Dances of Death: 13-15.

AGITPROP: 2,3, 11, 12.

(11 doesn't really deserve its uninspired companions; and you could start again, with 1, 6, 9 and 15 as "neo-classical", 7 and 8 as "epic-dramatic" or "cinematographic", etc...)

[Beef Oven!]

I think DSCH's symphonies can be placed in two broad, not entirely unrelated categories -

The Even ones: 2, 4. 6. 8. 10, 12 & 14.

The odd ones: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15

There's a similar pattern with the string quartets, too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think DSCH's symphonies can be placed in two broad, not entirely unrelated categories -
The Even ones: 2, 4. 6. 8. 10, 12 & 14.
The odd ones: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15
There's a similar pattern with the string quartets, too.

[cloughie]

I think DSCH's symphonies can be placed in two broad, not entirely unrelated categories -

The Even ones: 2, 4. 6. 8. 10, 12 & 14.

The odd ones: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15

There's a similar pattern with the string quartets, too.

I’ll give evens on the odds that I haven’t a clue what you’re on about. But I’ve liked No10 for 60 or so years after hearing the Mitropoulos and nearly as long No5 thanks to the Ancerl. I still am not struck by 2, 3, 13 or 14 but the only mathematical connection is that three are prime numbers but then I like 5, 7 and 11!

[edashtav]

I think DSCH's symphonies can be placed in two broad, not entirely unrelated categories -

The Even ones: 2, 4. 6. 8. 10, 12 & 14.

The odd ones: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15

There's a similar pattern with the string quartets, too.

I’m working on your secret, internal codes (,. &) , Beefy. I suspect that , stands for comatose.

[edashtav]

Boulez put them all in the single category : third pressing Mahler [as in olive-oil fractions]

[Bryn]

Boulez put them all in the single category : third pressing Mahler [as in olive-oil fractions]

Yeh, but he could not tell Bruckner's 5th from his 8th, and thought pre-20th-century composers had no idea of timbre. He did say sone very silly things about other composers on occasion.

[edashtav]

Yeh, but he could not tell Bruckner's 5th from his 8th, and thought pre-20th-century composers had no idea of timbre. He did say sone very silly things about other composers on occasion.

Such as “Stupid,Stupid,Stupid!”

About a certain Mr Green.

[cloughie]

Yeh, but he could not tell Bruckner's 5th from his 8th, and thought pre-20th-century composers had no idea of timbre. He did say sone very silly things about other composers on occasion.

Is that why he only recorded the 8th and why his Beethoven and Handel are, being diplomatic, interestingly different!

[cloughie]

Boulez put them all in the single category : third pressing Mahler [as in olive-oil fractions]

Third pressing or not I really like his Mahler!

[Pulcinella]

I wasn't as impressed by the Serenade as jlw was; indeed, had it been my first exposure I don't think I would have taken to it the way I did 50 years ago.
Not sure that I fully accept edashtav's view of it, though. It doesn't claim to be a concerto, and I find that the individual 'movements' usually combine well enough to give an overall integrity (if by that you mean coherence, ed?) that works for me, but perhaps they didn't in this performance, which I thought rather too bitty than symphonically integrated into a whole piece. (Apologies for sounding a bit like Pseuds Corner; I'm not expressing myself very well!)
I guess I'm used to hearing it 'played through' (without breaks), which might influence one's thoughts of the piece. The ballet staging (transmitted to cinemas from Covent Garden earlier this year) was quite a jolt at first, as it very definitely split the piece into its five 'movements', and that DID break the flow of the piece for me (though I thought the whole ballet very impressive and enjoyable). Nevertheless, it was good to have it programmed.

Bits of the Shostakovich left me reeling and almost diving for cover behind the sofa!

[edashtav]

I wasn't as impressed by the Serenade as jlw was; indeed, had it been my first exposure I don't think I would have taken to it the way I did 50 years ago.
Not sure that I fully accept edashtav's view of it, though. It doesn't claim to be a concerto, and I find that the individual 'movements' usually combine well enough to give an overall integrity (if by that you mean coherence, ed?) that works for me, but perhaps they didn't in this performance, which I thought rather too bitty than symphonically integrated into a whole piece. (Apologies for sounding a bit like Pseuds Corner; I'm not expressing myself very well!)
I guess I'm used to hearing it 'played through' (without breaks), which might influence one's thoughts of the piece. The ballet staging (transmitted to cinemas from Covent Garden earlier this year) was quite a jolt at first, as it very definitely split the piece into its five 'movements', and that DID break the flow of the piece for me (though I thought the whole ballet very impressive and enjoyable). Nevertheless, it was good to have it programmed.

Bits of the Shostakovich left me reeling and almost diving for cover behind the sofa!

Integrity or coherence? Well, I rather like your alternative, pulcs, but do not want to jettison that part of integrity to do with ‘wholeness’ as I feel that the Serenade is an apprentice work that shows all too clearly a variety of ill-digested models. Because the work is such a patchwork of borrowings, it does display for me the lack of the lack of coherence you suggest. I don’t feel that LB had assembled a complete kit of composing tools necessary to create fully satisfying works: tunes galore, rhythms aplenty, but counterpoint (7/10) and formal clarity (6/10).

[edashtav]

Is that why he only recorded the 8th and why his Beethoven and Handel are, being diplomatic, interestingly different!

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/pierre_boulez_741554

suggests, perhaps, that Pierre was trapped into conducting Bruckner’s 8th by the VPO.