Prom 66: Berlin Philharmonic & Kirill Petrenko (I) - 1.09.18

[Bryn]

Well, I only caught the last movement of the Schmidt and even the "hi res" stream is lossy enough to make it hard for me to comment on the condition of the orchestra . . .

As the iPlayer team were at pains to point out, there is no "hi res" stream. They are well aware that that description implies not only lossless transmission but quantization of at least 24 bits. The 320kbps iPlayer offering is thus labelled "High Definition Sound", in a vain attempt to avoid confusion.

[mathias broucek]

As the iPlayer team were at pains to point out, there is no "hi res" stream. They are well aware that that description implies not only lossless transmission but quantization of at least 24 bits. The 320kbps iPlayer offering is thus labelled "High Definition Sound", in a vain attempt to avoid confusion.

Thanks for the clarification. Sound was disappointing. Perhaps I should have gone upstairs and tried FM...

[Sir Velo]

Well, I only caught the last movement of the Schmidt and even the "hi res" stream is lossy enough to make it hard for me to comment on the condition of the orchestra

Funny you should say this; I was struck by how little was lost by this transmission not being FLAC but 320kbps AAC. In particular, the refulgent tone of the Berliners was spectacularly realised in the opening Dukas. Really very impressive sonically.

One little thing to note though is that the default setting on the R3 feed is for the volume to be set at level 8. It does need to be set to the highest level, 11, for the full sound to open up on my equipment.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One little thing to note though is that the default setting on the R3 feed is for the volume to be set at level 8. It does need to be set to the highest level, 11, for the full sound to open up on my equipment.

I was really looking forward to the Schmidt in particular, but found the performance a bit disappointing. Petrenko and the orchestra often seemed to be pushing the pacing of the Music, not giving time for the phrases to "register", cutting short the frequent tiny pauses between them - it sounded for all the world to me like a final run-through, or even a conductor so nervous that he was trying to get through the work as quickly as he could. This was obviously not the case - Petrenko knows this work very well, and his YouTube recording with the WDRSO is one of the best I know - and it may be that he was here trying to get closer to the timings of the composer's own performance with the VPO, which is reported to have been a mere 39 minutes (something that's a bit difficult to believe - I can't help wondering if somebody looked at their watch at the start and end and got some sums wrong). And the Scherzo/Fugue-Gigue section came off wonderfully well in this approach (Petrenko having discarded the annoying "stutters" that was the only feature of that WDRSO performance that I thought spoilt it). But, for me, the First Movement's "Allegro molto moderato" and the Adagio's ... errr ... "Adagio" markings need just a smidgen less haste.

And for all the mention of a "catastrophe" at the end of the Scherzo-Gigue-Fugue that the announcer drew attention to, I found the climaxes - particularly here - underpowered; closer to Franz Welser-Möst's approach in his recording with the LPO, but without his beguiling and effective sense of detachment and understatement. I shall listen again (and again) to see what I've missed, but had this been my first exposure to the work, I'd've come away thinking that it was rather a dull piece, instead of one of the most moving and powerful Symphonies.

[makropulos]

Surprised by the slightly cool reaction to this concert from some posters. In the hall, at least, I was completely enchanted by La Péri, by far the most luminous, detailed and exhilarating performance I've ever heard of it. The Prokofiev was much more interesting from the orchestra than the soloist - but it was very interesting indeed, with a drive and range of colour that's rare in my experience of this piece. As for the Schmidt, Petrenko's belief in this piece is palpable, the combination of clarity and richness in the textures was wonderful to behold, and the whole thing moved me deeply. The very tiny slips are not something to grumble about given that the whole was so richly satisfying. The pacing was magnificent. Incidentally, for those not in the hall, it's worth mentioning that the orchestra brought a tam-tam with them the like of which I've never seen before - absolutely huge. Anyway, for this listener, at least, I haven't heard a better concert than this all season. Petrenko is a fabulous musician and it's clear the orchestra have made an inspired choice. Now I need to listen to it on the radio - I hope they didn't screw up the sound.

[David-G]

Listening back to the Prokofiev 3rd Concerto later just intensified my involvement in the extravagant creative freedom on display; as if soloistic and orchestral command of the music was so effortlessly complete, they could do anything they liked with it, independently, at any given moment; playing with, for or sparking off against each other. The slow central episode of the finale was simply off-the-wall; orchestral shapes and colours, pianistic touch and tone.....astoundingly free.

I had not seen Yuja Wang before. And I am not familiar with the concerto. But I would concur with Jayne's comment. Standing on the rail at the right, seeing the pianist's face through the triangle of the piano and its lid, the whole thing was simply incredible.

[Bryn]

I had not seen Yuja Wang before. And I am not familiar with the concerto. But I would concur with Jayne's comment. Standing on the rail at the right, seeing the pianist's face through the triangle of the piano and its lid, the whole thing was simply incredible.

Now that you have heard a performance of the concerto, perhaps, if you do not already know it, you could try the John Ireland Piano Concerto, much influenced by Prokofiev's 3rd.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surprised by the slightly cool reaction to this concert from some posters. ... the Schmidt, Petrenko's belief in this piece is palpable, the combination of clarity and richness in the textures was wonderful to behold, and the whole thing moved me deeply.

Well - it might grow on me! (And the opening trumpet solo has never been better done - exactly the dynamics [ pp rising to p and then on some! ] as written in the score.)

Good interval introduction to the composer (I could have done with another five minutes of this rather than the reports of experiencing Music in the venue). A pity that the important point about Schmidt's "conservatism" was a little compromised by reference to Schmidt's taking part in the premiere of Schönberg's Verklärte Nacht - true enough, but Schmidt's relationship to Schönberg's and his Music went further than this: Schmidt also (apparently) took part in a performance of Arnie's Third String Quartet, and arranged and supervised a performance by his (Schmidt's) pupils of Pierrot Lunaire (IIRC, the first performance Schönberg could attend as a member of the audience, rather than as director of the instrumental ensemble) - a work Schmidt was fascinated by. It isn't inaccurate or unjust to describe Schmidt's language as "conservative", but that's a rather empty word, seeing that it can also be used about Schönberg's own aesthetic - but it's important to note that Schmidt was no reactionary (in the way that Joseph Marx or Felix Weingartner - both of whom wrote some gorgeous Music - were): he listened intently to what Schönberg was doing, and took what he needed to enhance his own expressive vocabulary.

And with particular regard to the Fourth Symphony, the structural similarities with Arnie's First Chamber Symphony are striking: a three-movement work, separated into four sections played continuously without break, the thematic material of which is all derived from the potential of the opening melodic ideas, and all based on the rich potential of the Sonata principle. (Not to mention the Quartal Harmony featuring in the Transition Sections of the first and fourth parts/sections/"movements", of course.)

[makropulos]

Well - it might grow on me! (And the opening trumpet solo has never been better done - exactly the dynamics [ pp rising to p and then on some! ] as written in the score.)

Good interval introduction to the composer (I could have done with another five minutes of this rather than the reports of experiencing Music in the venue). A pity that the important point about Schmidt's "conservatism" was a little compromised by reference to Schmidt's taking part in the premiere of Schönberg's Verklärte Nacht - true enough, but Schmidt's relationship to Schönberg's and his Music went further than this: Schmidt also (apparently) took part in a performance of Arnie's Third String Quartet, and arranged and supervised a performance by his (Schmidt's) pupils of Pierrot Lunaire (IIRC, the first performance Schönberg could attend as a member of the audience, rather than as director of the instrumental ensemble) - a work Schmidt was fascinated by. It isn't inaccurate or unjust to describe Schmidt's language as "conservative", but that's a rather empty word, seeing that it can also be used about Schönberg's own aesthetic - but it's important to note that Schmidt was no reactionary (in the way that Joseph Marx or Felix Weingartner - both of whom wrote some gorgeous Music - were): he listened intently to what Schönberg was doing, and took what he needed to enhance his own expressive vocabulary.

And with particular regard to the Fourth Symphony, the structural similarities with Arnie's First Chamber Symphony are striking: a three-movement work, separated into four sections played continuously without break, the thematic material of which is all derived from the potential of the opening melodic ideas, and all based on the rich potential of the Sonata principle. (Not to mention the Quartal Harmony featuring in the Transition Sections of the first and fourth parts/sections/"movements", of course.)

Very interesting points. I was one of the people doing the talk and both Erik Levi and I would both agree with you strongly about the Schoenberg connections. I didn't tell the story of the ASch Third Quartet because I just couldn't get a decent source for it beyond an excellent anecdote. It would be great to know if he did play it (and if what he's reported to have said is true - that he didn't quite understand it, but that ASch was too important not to play him). I'm sorry if the idea of Schmidt being 'conservative' (as you say, a more or less meaningless description) came across as something anybody actually believed - it was MH's question but I thought we'd both rather made the point that he was not particularly 'conservative', but was particularly original! Hey ho - it's a fabulous piece and he's a tremendously rewarding composer. I didn't know about FSch and Pierrot lunaire - that's fascinating. And I quite agree about the (broad) parallels with the First Chamber Symphony which Schmidt certainly knew well (though I don't think he ever played in a performance - though I'd love to be proved wrong).

[bluestateprommer]

I'm sorry if the idea of Schmidt being 'conservative' (as you say, a more or less meaningless description) came across as something anybody actually believed - it was MH's question but I thought we'd both rather made the point that he was not particularly 'conservative', but was particularly original!

Some time back, Robin Holloway wrote an article about Franz Schmidt which had as its header title "Unobtrusive conservative", or at least that was the title in the book volume of articles from which I'd read that article. So it's not just Martin Handley with that description. Compared to the Second Viennese School, FS is definitely "conservative" in harmonic idiom, which may have been what MH meant, at least IMHO. (Admittedly, in Holloway's article, what may be an unconscious revelation about himself comes in his use of the phrase "calls for a tactful whitewashing" with respect to FS and the 'Deutsche Auferstehung'.)

Don't know if you saw David Nice's review from The Arts Desk on this Prom, where some of his comments on Schmidt tie in to your discussion (wonder if he was at Beit Hall for the pre-Proms talk):

https://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/prom-66-wang-berlin-philharmonic-petrenko-review-intense-perfection

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm sorry if the idea of Schmidt being 'conservative' (as you say, a more or less meaningless description) came across as something anybody actually believed - it was MH's question but I thought we'd both rather made the point that he was not particularly 'conservative', but was particularly original!.

It didn't, and you did - my bad; I should have said something to the effect of "a shame that in discussing the idea of Schmidt as a 'conservative' composer, the only reference to a work by Schönberg was the early ... " etc. My apologies.

Yes, I could only find anecdotal evidence of the Schmidt/Schönberg 3rd Quartet story, but the Pierrot Lunaire performances are mentioned (together with a portrait photo of Schmidt with the performers ) in the Truscott book on page 11, on which is also mentioned FS's efforts to secure AS a teaching post at the Vienna Academy of Music. (The source seems to be Hans Keller, as it is part of Keller's Introduction to Truscott's book.) Indeed, for two such combustible personalities, Franz and Arnie seem to have got on with each other remarkably well!

[Barbirollians]

I caught up with the first half of the concert tonight .

Loved the performance of La Peri though I agree about the Fanfare.

As for Yuja Wang's Prokofiev 3 it was dazzlingly exciting in the moment and superbly accompanied . I did at the end though think I would love to hear Argerich play it with them and that I was far from sure I would want to live with this performance on record.

Encores were rather more technically than musically impressive to my ears .

[bluestateprommer]

Surprised by the slightly cool reaction to this concert from some posters. In the hall, at least, I was completely enchanted by La Péri, by far the most luminous, detailed and exhilarating performance I've ever heard of it. The Prokofiev was much more interesting from the orchestra than the soloist - but it was very interesting indeed, with a drive and range of colour that's rare in my experience of this piece. As for the Schmidt, Petrenko's belief in this piece is palpable, the combination of clarity and richness in the textures was wonderful to behold, and the whole thing moved me deeply. The very tiny slips are not something to grumble about given that the whole was so richly satisfying. The pacing was magnificent. Incidentally, for those not in the hall, it's worth mentioning that the orchestra brought a tam-tam with them the like of which I've never seen before - absolutely huge. Anyway, for this listener, at least, I haven't heard a better concert than this all season. Petrenko is a fabulous musician and it's clear the orchestra have made an inspired choice. Now I need to listen to it on the radio - I hope they didn't screw up the sound.

One more chance after the start of the New Year for the first Berlin Phil/Kirill P. Prom from last season, on 2 January:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001vbw