Prom 63: Sir András Schiff plays 'The Well-Tempered Clavier' (Book 2) 29/30.08.18

[underthecountertenor]

I’ve just watched the BBC4 broadcast of this. Wonderful, self-effacing playing. This was not an arrogant assertion of the superiority of the piano over the harpsichord or clavichord, as apparently suggested earlier on this thread. Schiff simply (simply?!) used the piano’s strengths in the service of the music, to bring out (in a completely unforced way) the most important voices whilst somehow never compromising the counterpoint.

I am now even more at a loss than before to understand the negativity expressed above, and am in absolute ageeenent with David-G (the masked Lone Ranger )

[BBMmk2]

Have to catch up on this! ASAP!

[gurnemanz]

I’ve just watched the BBC4 broadcast of this. Wonderful, self-effacing playing. This was not an arrogant assertion of the superiority of the piano over the harpsichord or clavichord, as apparently suggested earlier on this thread. Schiff simply (simply?!) used the piano’s strengths in the service of the music, to bring out (in a completely unforced way) the most important voices whilst somehow never compromising the counterpoint.

I am now even more at a loss than before to understand the negativity expressed above, and am in absolute ageeenent with David-G (the masked Lone Ranger )

Schiff writes in the Prom programme:

'Clavier' is a collective word for all the keyboard instruments avialable at the time - clavichord. harpsichord, organ, plus hybrid instruments. You cannot really say which specific Prelude and Fugue was intended for which instrument. And yet I think the piano is the only instrument that, if you treat it well, can somehow do justice to all of these Preludes and Fugues.

[Bryn]

Schiff writes in the Prom programme:

'Clavier' is a collective word for all the keyboard instruments avialable at the time - clavichord. harpsichord, organ, plus hybrid instruments. You cannot really say which specific Prelude and Fugue was intended for which instrument. And yet I think the piano is the only instrument that, if you treat it well, can somehow do justice to all of these Preludes and Fugues.

Does he have anything to say about the tuning regime appropriate to the work?

[David-G]

Does he have anything to say about the tuning regime appropriate to the work?

Schiff doesn't. But there is an interesting article in the programme by Tom Service making the case for "Well-tempered" as opposed to "Equal-tempered" in this work. He writes: "The 'clavier' they (the Preludes and Fugues) were written for was 'well-tempered' precisely because it allowed Bach to compose with the differences between the keys, not because it ironed them out." He does not say whether the Steinway at this concert was tuned in ET; but I suspect that it was.

When I play Haydn on my Broadwood square piano, which does not have the reverberation of the modern piano and hence has much greater clarity of individual notes, some of the wider thirds of Young's temperament are quite delicious.

[Lordgeous]

Did he play entirely without using the sustain pedal, as I believe he did before?

[Bryn]

Schiff doesn't. But there is an interesting article in the programme by Tom Service making the case for "Well-tempered" as opposed to "Equal-tempered" in this work. He writes: "The 'clavier' they (the Preludes and Fugues) were written for was 'well-tempered' precisely because it allowed Bach to compose with the differences between the keys, not because it ironed them out." He does not say whether the Steinway at this concert was tuned in ET; but I suspect that it was.

When I play Haydn on my Broadwood square piano, which does not have the reverberation of the modern piano and hence has much greater clarity of individual notes, some of the wider thirds of Young's temperament are quite delicious.

Thanks, David. That adds to the brief comment made by Doc Walker during her presentation. I have a couple of recordings of the 48 which use the (Bach?)Lehman tuning. Both have a harpsichord as their instrument. I also have Robert Levin's '48', which uses various historical instruments (Harpsichord, Clavichord and Organ), but not the Lehman tuning. I guess it would have beem a bit much to have the organ retuned for those Preludes and Fugues he played on such. Not such a problem to retune a piano though.

[doversoul1]

Schiff writes in the Prom programme:

'Clavier' is a collective word for all the keyboard instruments avialable at the time - clavichord. harpsichord, organ, plus hybrid instruments. You cannot really say which specific Prelude and Fugue was intended for which instrument. And yet I think the piano is the only instrument that, if you treat it well, can somehow do justice to all of these Preludes and Fugues.

My preference for the harpsichord is just my taste and not based on any theories but even so, I find this rather, well, arrogant.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My preference for the harpsichord is just my taste and not based on any theories but even so, I find this rather, well, arrogant.

Well, Schiff has explored older instruments in that he made recording using Mozart's own piano. Perhaps not the harpsichord though.

[doversoul1]

Well, Schiff has explored older instruments in that he made recording using Mozart's own piano. Perhaps not the harpsichord though.

Schiff is a great artist and this prom may have been a great performance and event but to say that only the piano can do justice to this work does sound, to me, arrogant.

[David-G]

Did he play entirely without using the sustain pedal, as I believe he did before?

I can't say "entirely", and I can't be 100% certain, but I was not conscious of him using the sustain pedal.

Incidentally, a couple of reviews of this concert are worth reading.

The Arts Desk, a thoughtful review by David Nice:

https://theartsdesk.com/classical-music/prom-63-bach-well-tempered-clavier-book-2-schiff-review-universe-within

The Independent, by Alexandra Coghlan:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/prom-63-andras-schiff-the-welltempered-clavier-book-ii-bach-royal-albert-hall-london-review-a-a8515701.html

[Lordgeous]

"One of my teachers was George Malcolm. He was a marvellous musician and a great harpsichordist. He told me: “You don’t have to play this music on the harpsichord, do it on the piano but do it well!” He taught me to achieve clear articulation, part-playing and legato with the hands alone, and without using the feet. In recent years, I have set out to prove that I could play Bach without touching the pedal, and it is possible. After all, the sustaining pedal was not available to Bach on any of his instruments. On the modern piano it is a great asset, but it can do irreparable damage when used indiscriminately. Today I feel confident about adding a discreet amount of pedal – it doesn’t matter, as long as it all sounds good". (Andras Schiff - Guardian 2015)

[Darkbloom]

Schiff is a great artist and this prom performance may have been a great performance and event but to say that only the piano cat do justice to this work does sound, to me, arrogant.

It's just an opinion. Harpsichordists aren't going to give up just because Schiff prefers the piano in Bach. It's no more arrogant than the claims period performers make for their own instruments. Fortunately we're able to compare, contrast and make up our own minds.

[David-G]

Steven Isserlis's thoughts on Schiff's playing of Bach, courtesy of Twitter.

"Andras Schiff's Bach-playing is wonderfully theory-free. I feel that Bach-playing should be governed by three tests: 1) Am I playing this phrase as I would naturally sing it? 2) Could someone dance to my rhythms? 3) Am I making the harmonic journey clear without lecturing?"

https://twitter.com/TorinDouglas/status/1035783626452094976

[doversoul1]

It's just an opinion. Harpsichordists aren't going to give up just because Schiff prefers the piano in Bach. It's no more arrogant than the claims period performers make for their own instruments. Fortunately we're able to compare, contrast and make up our own minds.

Where is Richard Barrett when we need him?