Prom 56: Mozart & Bruckner – 24.08.18

[edashtav]

Thanks, Heldenleben, your phrase,”sounded jaunty rather than triumphant” is a really good description of what went awry at the end.

[bluestateprommer]

Oramo's Bruckner 5 was indeed very good. The anorak in me has to ask "which edition?", which might make for a good question to ask on the BBC Proms' Twitter feed. I detected what seemed to be a few nudges in the first movement, in terms of phrasing. Admittedly, I'm the worst person around to comment on Bruckner, because of my own personal antipathy to his symphonies, even after 20+ years of listening and trying, including hearing 7 of the symphonies live.

On edashtav's point, my impression is that Oramo is very much a 'mensch' with the players, and understands how much the BBC SO works during the Proms season. Presumably, SO thus knows well how much to pace them in rehearsal and in concert, without pushing too hard and draining them of too much energy in the rehearsals. The BBC SO does seem to have a historical reputation for eating conductors that it doesn't like for breakfast, AFAICT. That seems not to be the case at all with Oramo, and to a fairly good extent with Belohlavek, in terms of good relations. Hopefully Oramo will continue with the BBC SO well past 2020. If SO goes to 2025, that would mean a tenure one year more than Sir Andrew Davis, the longest-serving BBC SO chief conductor after Boult.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was following the Haas edition and didn't get lost unlike a few other Bruckner prom occasions where I naively wondered what the hell was going on ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Here's José Marques' summary of the 5th's compositional history...

"Symphony no. 5 in B flat Major
Original version composed from February 1875 to May 1876. The later revision was made on the same score, so it is not possible to recover this original version, although Haas provided some indications to this effect
1878 version A thorough revision was concluded in November 1878. The Haas (1935) and Nowak (1952) editions of this version don't present any significant difference between them.

Revised version made in 1892-4 by Franz Schalk and employed in the first performance of the work (Graz, April 8, 1894). It was published in 1896 by Doblinger (First Edition of the work). Bruckner had very little to do with this revision, that introduces large cuts especially in the Finale."

https://www.unicamp.br/~jmarques/mus/bruckner-e.htm

***
The Schalk edition has been recorded of course, not least by that great and devoted Brucknerian, Hans Knappertsbusch. Anyone who hears it, knowing the work well from the 1878 version, will find it very hard to bear. Quite the worst example (even worse than the 1889/90 3rd) of the revisionist, editorial damage done to Bruckner's beautiful, powerful and original structures.

Thankfully, it never gained a place in the Bruckner repertoire. Unlike, sadly, the later versions of the 3rd, appealingly catchy abridgements though they may be.

[Darkbloom]

I was in the hall for this one. The slow movement of the Bruckner lacked any real inwardness - the very first time I heard it I was bowled over but I've never felt the same way since about any reading. The ending was far too fast and lightweight and got a mixed reaction in the Arena. Less than rapturous, nary a stomp.

The Mozart was fine, but BG seemed in his own zone and I didn't see much communication going on. It was pleasant but I've heard others dig deeper. SO was a tower of strength throughout. I had forgotten how impressive he is. Strong purposeful gestures, really driving the performance without playing to the gallery.

I hope the excellent trombone section came across on the radio. And the principal horn - there is ample opportunity for them to come unstuck in the Bruckner.

[jonfan]

This was a great Bruckner 5 and I’m glad I made the journey to attend in the Hall. I sat in the side stalls and could observe SO closely to see the great detail he put into every phrase. Such wonderful pianissimo playing in the first movement as the symphony made its hesitant start. The long silences were breath holding moments. Wonderful playing from all departments of the BBCSO with clarity of texture always apparent. The string playing had a luminous quality to it, shown to the full in the second movement. Wonderful to segue the scherzo with no break after the collapse at the end of the second. The whole symphony moved forward swiftly but without seeming rushed. The great chorale, having been achieved, brought goosebumps. Not quite heaven’s summit achieved as the gas just faltered in the last few seconds. But hey, a great experience and superb brass playing, who were all pretty pleased with themselves afterwards. First oboe and clarinet stand out in the wind and first horn immaculate with many exposed delicate phrases to negotiate. The plaudits go to SO for his vision and luminous quality of conception and the orchestra knew that too by the applause they gave him. The programme said the edition used was Haas/Nowak if that means anything to anyone.
BG played with technical assurance and grace in the Mozart but plumbing the depths is still to come, as I’m sure it will.

[Bryn]

The programme said the edition uesed was Haas/Nowak if that means anything at all.

As was pointed out by jlw, earlier in this thread, there is very little difference between the Haas and Nowak editions of this symphony.

Bruckner's original version is effectively lost, since he used the original score, overwriting it, to make the revisions we hear today. Maybe modern forensic techniques could get some idea of what his first thoughts were, but no such attempt has been made, as far as I am aware.

[jonfan]

Oramo makes the point that the last few minutes of the piece are the most difficult for the orchestra especially as the ending needs to be heaven storming in effect. Jochum in his 1958 recording with BRSO doubles all the brass with 11 extra players for the last two minutes of the finale in order to give an overwhelming effect. He argues, with reason, that the section would be tired by that time and my word the ending sounds amazing even after 60 years, but not so amazing for orchestra treasurers. Recommended listening.

[BBMmk2]

Oramo makes the point that the last few minutes of the piece are the most difficult for the orchestra especially as the ending needs to be heaven storming in effect. Jochum in his 1958 recording with BRSO doubles all the brass with 11 extra players for the last two minutes of the finale in order to give an overwhelming effect. He argues, with reason, that the section would be tired by that time and my word the ending sounds amazing even after 60 years, but not so amazing for orchestra treasurers. Recommended listening.

Is that the recording in the DG set?

[Bryn]

Is that the recording in the DG set?

Indeed so. Recorded February 1958; my introduction to the work, in the boxed set of LPs of Bruckner Symphonies under Jochum. I struggled over whether to get the Jochum or Haitink sets. The use, principally, of Nowak editions is what won me to the Jochum set. Of course, these days I also have the Philips Haitink set on CD, but still, of the two, marginally prefer the Jochum.

[jonfan]

Indeed so. Recorded February 1958; my introduction to the work, in the boxed set of LPs of Bruckner Symphonies under Jochum. I struggled over whether to get the Jochum or Haitink sets. The use, principally, of Nowak editions is what won me to the Jochum set. Of course, these days I also have the Philips Haitink set on CD, but still, of the two, marginally prefer the Jochum.

The DG Jochum Bruckner is only available on CD in a complete box set of the symphonies but you can get the individual symphonies and/or movements from this link.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7924385--bruckner-symphonies-1-9-complete

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The DG Jochum Bruckner is only available on CD in a complete box set of the symphonies but you can get the individual symphonies and/or movements from this link. https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/cl...s-1-9-complete

Or, for those who prefer physical CDs:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Symphony-5/dp/B000AU1LJ4

[Bryn]

Or, for those who prefer physical CDs:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sy.../dp/B000AU1LJ4

Yes, but the thing is, for just a little over twice the cost of that single CD you can get another 7¾ Bruckner symphonies from the same conductor via the boxed set.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, but the thing is, for just a little over twice the cost of that single CD you can get another 7¾ Bruckner symphonies from the same conductor via the boxed set.

- but should there be anyone who just wants the Bruckner #5 for whatever reason, then ...

[jonfan]

Or, for those who prefer physical CDs:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sy.../dp/B000AU1LJ4

Thanks for up dating the advice. I hadn’t realised a single CD was available.