Prom 50: Mozart's Clarinet Concerto & Mahler's Fifth Symphony 19.08.18

[jonfan]

Are we being a bit harsh expecting professional musicians to get the notes right in orchestral material? I'm sure all the hardest stuff are presented in auditions for places. Playing pieces like Mahler 5 should be no problem for the principals of any section of the orchestra in this day and age with talented youngsters snapping at their heels.
As far as I could tell the on stage camera was next to the timps; no camera was immediately in front of the trumpeter, the shot would be from the back of the hall.

[Darkbloom]

Are we being a bit harsh expecting professional musicians to get the notes right in orchestral material? I'm sure all the hardest stuff are presented in auditions for places. Playing pieces like Mahler 5 should be no problem for the principals of any section of the orchestra in this day and age with talented youngsters snapping at their heels.
As far as I could tell the on stage camera was next to the timps; no camera was immediately in front of the trumpeter, the shot would be from the back of the hall.

Being professional doesn't mean you aren't human and can't make mistakes. Perhaps a young whizz-kid might have thrown it off without a thought; but ten years hard graft in an orchestra, balancing work and family life, might strain even the most gifted occasionally. They aren't robots and I don't want to hear them play like one.

In a way, I value the more error-strewn performances because it makes me appreciate the ultra -polished ones that much more. We're really spoiled these days, when even the second-ra're bands are still very accomplished. I think the Proms should have a couple of really lousy orchestras each year to remind us how lucky we are most of the time.

[gradus]

Yup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcATpZzMA1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwqUQJUWRfI

Fascinating, many thanks.

[Petrushka]

I'm not a trained musician but some random thoughts...

There is an unfair tendency to compare the live performance with one's favourite recordings but musicians are not machines. The BBCSSO have given us a good number of well-regarded Proms this season and they must be tired. I'll repeat that Herbert von Karajan said that even the Berlin Philharmonic found the Mahler 5 a challenge due to this big scherzo in the middle.

JLW thought that the Mahler 5 sounded unprepared and I'd agree. To put the Norgard 3 next evening seems madness with all the likely constraints on rehearsal time.

Proms planners must also take the rap for so explicitly associating it with the famous VPO/Bernstein Prom. That heightened the stress levels and gave completely unrealistic expectations.

The trumpet player would be under maximum pressure: live on TV and radio, setting the whole thing in motion. Probably played it perfectly a hundred times in practice. The casualty rate among trumpet players, who need nerves of steel for those tricky, exposed moments, must be high.

I've been to many Mahler 5's in London (my first ever Prom was one) with - oh yes! - the 'great conductors' : Haitink, Solti, Abbado (often), Tennstedt, Jansons, Rattle, Bernstein among others. Some of them I could count as among the greatest concert hall experiences I've had and some of them have been at the Proms.

[pastoralguy]

I think the Proms should have a couple of really lousy orchestras each year to remind us how lucky we are most of the time.


Yes, it's about time the Ulster Orchestra were invited to give a Prom Concert...

[pastoralguy]

I think the Proms should have a couple of really lousy orchestras each year to remind us how lucky we are most of the time.

I quite agree. And isn't it about time the Ulster Orchestra was given a Prom Concert...?

[gedsmk]

I quite agree. And isn't it about time the Ulster Orchestra was given a Prom Concert...?

Last year!

BBCSSO isn’t a lousy band. The Strauss was gorgeous!

[gradus]

I think the Proms should have a couple of really lousy orchestras each year to remind us how lucky we are most of the time.


Yes, it's about time the Ulster Orchestra were invited to give a Prom Concert...

Why so? The Ulster Orchestra have endured tough times including recent threats to their existence; they should be praised not excoriated.

[jonfan]

Why so? The Ulster Orchestra have endured tough times including recent threats to their existence; they should be praised not excoriated.

[Beef Oven!]

I have a few recordings with Tod Handley et al with the UO. Rather good, IMO.

[Darkbloom]

Last year!

BBCSSO isn’t a lousy band. The Strauss was gorgeous!

I didn't have them in mind, they've been excellent this season.

Incidentally, I listened to the interval talk on Mahler. Even by his standards, Lebrecht was intolerable, talking over everyone. Truly appalling, the other guy barely got a word in.

[jayne lee wilson]

I have a few recordings with Tod Handley et al with the UO. Rather good, IMO.

Wow, yes... that Delius disc with the Florida Suite and the North Country Sketches, and vintage Chandos sound...
Last few days I've been revisiting their Ravel with Y-P Tortelier, the Schéhérazade Overture and Songs, the fabulous Tortelier orchestration of the Piano Trio.... you can't ask much more from a recording really , and the Ulster Hall is fine venue...

Their Chandos catalogue is quite impressive...!

[kernelbogey]

....In a way, I value the more error-strewn performances because it makes me appreciate the ultra -polished ones that much more. We're really spoiled these days, when even the second-ra're bands are still very accomplished. I think the Proms should have a couple of really lousy orchestras each year to remind us how lucky we are most of the time.

I agree. We are spoiled by commercial recordings which are, in the main, cut-and-paste amalgams of multiple takes. By contrast the energy and passion of live performances transcend the impact of slips, wrong notes, bad days and the rest.

[jonfan]

I agree. We are spoiled by commercial recordings which are, in the main, cut-and-paste amalgams of multiple takes. By contrast the energy and passion of live performances transcend the impact of slips, wrong notes, bad days and the rest.

To be honest there’s very little cut and paste nowadays, let alone multiple takes, mainly for financial as well as artistic reasons. John Culshaw pioneered the long take over 50 years ago. Many CDs are now from public performances with just some patches. I think performers prefer this way of working as a live concert gives an extra excitement that a cold studio doesn’t.
Mark O’Keefe has occupied the principal trumpet chair with great distinction at BBCSSO for over 20 years, a remarkable record so surely allowed the odd lapse. Hope he continues for many years more. Not all trumpeters can be like the legendary Maurice Murphy of the LSO who never split a note and never warmed up!
JLW reminds me to look out my old Chandos CDs of the Ulster Orchestra with their superb sound. They alerted me to Bax symphonies and poems conducted by Bryden Thomson, a great conductor that Chandos rightly championed in this (still) neglected repertoire who was one for socialising with his players before and after gigs, a rare habit now as well as then? Also there’s a terrific Saint Saens Organ Symphony with Y-P T.

[Bryn]

Why so? The Ulster Orchestra have endured tough times including recent threats to their existence; they should be praised not excoriated.

Rightly or wrongly, I took the comment as a little tilt at a forum member with past connections to that orchestra, rather than at the performing skills of the orchestra itself.