Prom 42: Grieg's Piano Concerto – 13.08.18

[marvin]

I cannot believe what I have been reading here.

The concert began with what I can only describe as a non-event.

Symphony?- think not.

Then one of my favourite and most loved piano concertos destroyed by the worse display of self conceit by a so-called prize winning soloist.

Dame Myra Hess must have been turning in her grave to hear the way that Edvard Grieg's masterpiece was savaged and distorted by this dreadful display self aggrandisement.

So,after a period of recovery, I was happy to enjoy a very reassuring rendition of Sibelius ' Fifth Symphony..

Neat and tidy - not mindboggling but acceptable to the listener.

I can see a promising future for this orchestra and Estonia has done well to assemble this mixed bunch of players to join the group of Scandinavian orchestras.

Good luck to them. I'm glad that I had the courage to return to this performance for an acceptable close to the evening.

HS

* Like father, like son? On the evidence of tonight's conducting?
Unfortunately not in my opinion

At last an honest assessment of last night's Prom. I only watched it on BBC4 and was only really interested in the Grieg and the Sibelius the latter remains to be seen.
Yes, the Grieg was interesting to watch but painful at times to listen to. The Tempi were pulled about all over the place and at the expense of accuracy on behalf of Ms Buniatishvilli. This is the way we are going nowadays with glamorous women flashing their thighs and wearing unnecessarily revealing dress to ply their instrumental skills.
Of course a Prom audience would applaud and cheer virtually anyone who appears in front of them not that I am encouraging booing or slow clapping anyone.
We are now in a dumbed down society and this has now crept into our classical music world. No longer can we hear the dulcet tones of Richard Baker or Suzy Klein introducing the proms but instead are subjected to hysterical broadcasters telling us the listeners/viewers how 'wonderful' or 'magnificent' or 'exciting' was the piece we have just listened to. Frankly, I'll be my own judge, thank you very much.
As for Ms KB's encore - Claire de Lune? It was so slow and drawn out and affected that it was almost embarrassing it its execution.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So, do you think that the assessments of those who don't share your opinion are "dishonest", marvin?

[marvin]

So, do you think that the assessments of those who don't share your opinion are "dishonest", marvin?

You're entitled to your opinions but I will still comment on my assessment of any Prom and I just happened to agree with someone else here. We all have our own opinions and mine is just as valid as anyone else.

[Bryn]

So, do you think that the assessments of those who don't share your opinion are "dishonest", marvin?

Be Fair, what diodes down his left side like he has, you can't expect the best of judgements.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... I will still comment on my assessment of any Prom ...

On this occasion, I was more interested in your assessment of opinions different from your own, which you implied were dishonest.

[edashtav]

[…] The Tempi were pulled about all over the place and at the expense of accuracy on behalf of Ms Buniatishvilli. […]
As for Ms KB's encore - Claire de Lune? It was so slow and drawn out and affected that it was almost embarrassing it its execution.

I’ve checked out my ms., Marvin. I analysed the first movement (but not its cadenza). In the piano part, Greig indicates 35 tempi changes , some of them slight, others major. His most frequent instructions are “a tempo” (7) and “poco rit.” (6).

My reaction: oh dear, EG pulled the tempi about all over the place.

Do I sense that you agree with me?

[LMcD]

At last an honest assessment of last night's Prom. I only watched it on BBC4 and was only really interested in the Grieg and the Sibelius the latter remains to be seen.
Yes, the Grieg was interesting to watch but painful at times to listen to. The Tempi were pulled about all over the place and at the expense of accuracy on behalf of Ms Buniatishvilli. This is the way we are going nowadays with glamorous women flashing their thighs and wearing unnecessarily revealing dress to ply their instrumental skills.
Of course a Prom audience would applaud and cheer virtually anyone who appears in front of them not that I am encouraging booing or slow clapping anyone.
We are now in a dumbed down society and this has now crept into our classical music world. No longer can we hear the dulcet tones of Richard Baker or Suzy Klein introducing the proms but instead are subjected to hysterical broadcasters telling us the listeners/viewers how 'wonderful' or 'magnificent' or 'exciting' was the piece we have just listened to. Frankly, I'll be my own judge, thank you very much.
As for Ms KB's encore - Claire de Lune? It was so slow and drawn out and affected that it was almost embarrassing it its execution.

Richard Baker was a fine newsreader, but when watching him introducing a Prom I always felt that I had mistakenly wandered into somebody else's dinner party or had got into Glyndebourne under false pretences. As for Suzy Klein, well she's fine if you like the hectoring schoolmarm type.
(By the way, it wasn't her thighs Ms B was flashing - at least not on my TV set!)
Where I do agree with Marvin is on his comments about hysterical broadcasters who are not willing to let us make up our own minds. 'It's going to be exciting', said TS. Of COURSE it was going to be exciting, as would any half-decent performance of the Sibelius 5th - and this was a very fine performance.

[edashtav]

Richard Baker was a fine newsreader, but when watching him introducing a Prom I always felt that I had mistakenly wandered into somebody else's dinner party or had got into Glyndebourne under false pretences. As for Suzy Klein, well she's fine if you like the hectoring schoolmarm type.
(By the way, it wasn't her thighs Ms B was flashing - at least not on my TV set!)

Spot on, LMcD!

[Boilk]

Your fascinating and insightful reply makes me wonder all the more why you dismissed the Pärt 3rd and 4th as "duds"! (If you'd said it of 1 and 2, well... .see above!) Of course, for me 3 and 4 flow beautifully in accordance with their own slower laws of motion, of recurrence. Catching the differently-angled light as they turn slowly through the air.
Don't they work very beautifully "on their own terms" i.e. against the concept of goal-oriented, teleological development of, say, a Sibelius 5th or "sonata"?

I’ve long been all for symphonies (and also concertos) not having to adhere to the doctrine of goal-oriented, teleological development. BUT I much prefer to hear some overall cohesiveness in the discourse, of whatever musical persuasion. The Third does wander a little for me.

I hear Arvo Pärt's Symphony No.4 as a masterpiece of self-denial: sonically, emotionally, musically.

The Fourth grows on me a little, but I think would have been more cogent at 25-30 minutes, although I appreciate time can 'slow down' when listening to this sort of thing. Sonically he could have denied himself those timbales. And musically he frequently employs expressive, purely chordal episodes of lush, harmonic clusters, foregoing the sparse open fifths found all over the Third. I can imagine a lot of the Fourth being used effectively in those Nordic Noir detective series currently in vogue.

To these ears one stand-out utterance of musical chasteness, where effectively only essence remains, is Alan Hovhaness’s Fra Angelico from 1967 – one of a plethora of his unearthly offerings from the 1960s, before he went all neo-Romantic in the 1970s. In fact an 'innocent ear' might mistake parts of it for Pärt himself.

[jayne lee wilson]

At last an honest assessment of last night's Prom. I only watched it on BBC4 and was only really interested in the Grieg and the Sibelius the latter remains to be seen.
Yes, the Grieg was interesting to watch but painful at times to listen to. The Tempi were pulled about all over the place and at the expense of accuracy on behalf of Ms Buniatishvilli. This is the way we are going nowadays with glamorous women flashing their thighs and wearing unnecessarily revealing dress to ply their instrumental skills.
Of course a Prom audience would applaud and cheer virtually anyone who appears in front of them not that I am encouraging booing or slow clapping anyone.
We are now in a dumbed down society and this has now crept into our classical music world. No longer can we hear the dulcet tones of Richard Baker or Suzy Klein introducing the proms but instead are subjected to hysterical broadcasters telling us the listeners/viewers how 'wonderful' or 'magnificent' or 'exciting' was the piece we have just listened to. Frankly, I'll be my own judge, thank you very much.
As for Ms KB's encore - Claire de Lune? It was so slow and drawn out and affected that it was almost embarrassing it its execution.

The problem with referring to one particular post as "at last an honest assessment" is the strong implication that it has a greater objective authority - greater "truth" - than certain others. Which, while respectful of my virtual friend Hornspieler (from whom I learned a lot on here a few years ago, about listening and commenting upon listening) needn't be the case. It is another subjective view - which especially of the Pärt work, HS would, I think, be happy to admit.

But your own opinion is sideswiped by the appalling sexism of your comments about the pianist; not to mention your sweeping dismissal of her (subjective!) interpretation, the merits of which in relation to Grieg's score I see Ed has attempted to instruct you about....

(Personally, I have no problem with enthusiasm from presenters before, during or after the concert; (I especially like Jon Swain's brief comments in the studio afterward)... I hear it, I may or not empathise... I listen...form my own judgements... I never feel I'm being "told what to think"...what's the problem?)

[jayne lee wilson]

I’ve long been all for symphonies (and also concertos) not having to adhere to the doctrine of goal-oriented, teleological development. BUT I much prefer to hear some overall cohesiveness in the discourse, of whatever musical persuasion. The Third does wander a little for me.


The Fourth grows on me a little, but I think would have been more cogent at 25-30 minutes, although I appreciate time can 'slow down' when listening to this sort of thing. Sonically he could have denied himself those timbales. And musically he frequently employs expressive, purely chordal episodes of lush, harmonic clusters, foregoing the sparse open fifths found all over the Third. I can imagine a lot of the Fourth being used effectively in those Nordic Noir detective series currently in vogue.

To these ears one stand-out utterance of musical chasteness, where effectively only essence remains, is Alan Hovhaness’s Fra Angelico from 1967 – one of a plethora of his unearthly offerings from the 1960s, before he went all neo-Romantic in the 1970s. In fact an 'innocent ear' might mistake parts of it for Pärt himself.

Well, the wonderful recent Kaljuste recording of the 4th comes in at 29'09, compared to Salonen's 36'13 (!). Have you not heard that yet? It certainly has greater "chasteness" than the sensuous warmth of the LAPO.
For me an example of pure musical retreat might be the Kancheli Prayers sequences, so very different to those extremes of frozen inertia/explosiveness in some of his symphonies.

[LMcD]

I’ve long been all for symphonies (and also concertos) not having to adhere to the doctrine of goal-oriented, teleological development. BUT I much prefer to hear some overall cohesiveness in the discourse, of whatever musical persuasion. The Third does wander a little for me.


The Fourth grows on me a little, but I think would have been more cogent at 25-30 minutes, although I appreciate time can 'slow down' when listening to this sort of thing. Sonically he could have denied himself those timbales. And musically he frequently employs expressive, purely chordal episodes of lush, harmonic clusters, foregoing the sparse open fifths found all over the Third. I can imagine a lot of the Fourth being used effectively in those Nordic Noir detective series currently in vogue.

To these ears one stand-out utterance of musical chasteness, where effectively only essence remains, is Alan Hovhaness’s Fra Angelico from 1967 – one of a plethora of his unearthly offerings from the 1960s, before he went all neo-Romantic in the 1970s. In fact an 'innocent ear' might mistake parts of it for Pärt himself.

Reading some of these reviews is doing wonders for my vocabulary. 'Timbales' is presumably being used here to prove that music is the food of love - possibly in a teleological way.

[gradus]

I only heard the Sibelius and the encores. The Sibelius was enjoyable but I've heard other readings that I prefer, the encores were wonderful though and I thought the individual players, especially the clarinettist, were outstandingly good.
Ms Buniatishvilli has had mixed reviews on here before so I'll catch up with the Greig on iPlayer.

[Suffolkcoastal]

For me it was just a great pity that the Estonians had to bring with them music by one of their most overrated composers instead one of their greatest, a composer who has still not had a note of his music performed at the Proms.

[vinteuil]

For me it was just a great pity that the Estonians had to bring with them music by one of their most overrated composers instead one of their greatest, a composer who has still not had a note of his music performed at the Proms.

... care to give us a hint?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Estonian_composers

.