Prom 42: Grieg's Piano Concerto – 13.08.18

[Barbirollians]

I remember our much missed forumite salymap used to find Jacqueline du Pre's hair very distracting .

[Nick Armstrong]

The worst aspect of the Friday concert on TV was the introductions by Tom Service. What on earth was he on to shriek like that all the time?

Oh jeez he was grotesque. Caught a bit of the intro due to clumsy fast-forwarding. Sounded like his trousers were on fire (to borrow that Clive James quote about Murray Walker's commentating style)

Stunningly good Sibelius 5 though - (inc. all the right brass bits accented in the last movement - there's a high trumpet note that is often inaudible, thrilling here.)

[jayne lee wilson]

The Pärt 3rd symphony is a dud, just like his 4th done at the Proms 2 or 3 years back. Tom Service may say that "he's the most popular composer on the planet by any statistic" but that's for a reason. Some composers tend to excel in shorter 'mood' pieces which, intentionally or not, happen to ingratiate themself to the wider classical and 'crossover' marketplace, and he's certainly one of them.

This comment expresses nothing but ignorance and arrogance. How much of Pärt's work do you know, or of those other Estonian, Georgian, Polish and Russian composers like Kancheli, Gorecki or Gubaidulina, whose music will never satisfy conventional classical desires?
Pärt's music developed through several stylistic changes across several decades; for me, it was with this 3rd Symphony, which I love every much, that he truly became himself. His 4th is equally beautiful and distinctive, and just as baffling to many conventional classical musical expectations.

You can only listen to this music, and respond to it, on its own terms. Its aims and achievements have little to do wth the mainstream Western European Symphonic Repertoire. Neither the 3rd or 4th Symphonies are especially short, recordings range between 20 - 30 minutes; some of his choral works are very much longer, and they express subtly variable shades of mood, but tend toward the inward and meditative, offering sound-objects, icons for contemplation. They can be austere, demanding a certain self-abnegation, an attempt to find meditative calm or withdrawal, from the listener.

***
The negative obsession with Tom Service, a very knowledgable and articulate music journalist, shows this forum at its worst; especially as it seems to have prevented most listeners here from listening to a superb Shostakovich Prom with the Aurora Orchestra, for no better reason than his sharing in its presentation.

[edashtav]

The negative obsession with Tom Service, a very knowledgable and articulate music journalist, shows this forum at its worst; especially as it seems to have prevented most listeners here from listening to a superb Shostakovich Prom with the Aurora Orchestra, for no better reason than his sharing in its presentation.

wrote Jayne, a little earlier.

I’m with her most of the way with Tom Service: at his best he’s informed and enthusiastic, but he can allow his tongue and his pen to...
When it comes to the Aurora orchestra’s magnificent performance of Shistakovich’s 9th Symphony, please do yourselves a Service: it’s an interpretation in a million, and, later, you will kick yourself if you have not listened to it on iPlayer.

[Petrushka]

This comment expresses nothing but ignorance and arrogance. How much of Pärt's work do you know, or of those other Estonian, Georgian, Polish and Russian composers like Kancheli, Gorecki or Gubaidulina, whose music will never satisfy conventional classical desires?
Pärt's music developed through several stylistic changes across several decades; for me, it was with this 3rd Symphony, which I love every much, that he truly became himself. His 4th is equally beautiful and distinctive, and just as baffling to many conventional classical musical expectations.

You can only listen to this music, and respond to it, on its own terms. Its aims and achievements have little to do wth the mainstream Western European Symphonic Repertoire. Neither the 3rd or 4th Symphonies are especially short, recordings range between 20 - 30 minutes; some of his choral works are very much longer, and they express subtly variable shades of mood, but tend toward the inward and meditative, offering sound-objects, icons for contemplation. They can be austere, demanding a certain self-abnegation, an attempt to find meditative calm or withdrawal, from the listener.

Monday night's broadcast of the Pärt Symphony No 3 was the first time I'd heard the work (though I was present at the 1979 UK premiere of his Cantus, as was Pärt himself, I've heard little else of his output) and I was so immediately bowled over I made sure of catching, and recording, the TV relay tonight. Perhaps listening to so much Bruckner prepared me for the sound world but I was hooked from the very first note and feel ready to explore more.

Jayne, which recording would you recommend?

[Beef Oven!]

Monday night's broadcast of the Pärt Symphony No 3 was the first time I'd heard the work (though I was present at the 1979 UK premiere of his Cantus, as was Pärt himself, I've heard little else of his output) and I was so immediately bowled over I made sure of catching, and recording, the TV relay tonight. Perhaps listening to so much Bruckner prepared me for the sound world but I'm ready to explore more.

Jayne, which recording would you recommend?

In lieu of Jayne's response, I's say go for the old BIS. Had it for years and years! I also have the more recent ECM (Tõnu Kaljuste, NFM Wrocław Philharmonic) but I find the BIS more earthy. I think I know what Jayne will say!!

[Nick Armstrong]

The negative obsession with Tom Service, a very knowledgable and articulate music journalist, shows this forum at its worst

No, the forum is a place to exchange opinions. If you find (for example) Tom Service's presentational style tolerable, good luck to you; but I don't think it means you can shut down the views of others who have a different view - that would be bad for the forum

[Beef Oven!]

No, the forum is a place to exchange opinions. If you find (for example) Tom Service's presentational style tolerable, good luck to you; but I don't think it means you can shut down the views of others who have a different view - that would be bad for the forum

I'm with Jayne on this, Cali.

I don't think presenting prejudices is the same as poffering and exchanging opinions. Too often in this forum people present their default prejudices as the starting point for discussion. I think it's a weakness of this forum - it is too often very opinionated and sniffy.

[Nick Armstrong]

I don't think presenting prejudices is the same as proffering and exchanging opinions.

I completely agree with that.

[jayne lee wilson]

Monday night's broadcast of the Pärt Symphony No 3 was the first time I'd heard the work (though I was present at the 1979 UK premiere of his Cantus, as was Pärt himself, I've heard little else of his output) and I was so immediately bowled over I made sure of catching, and recording, the TV relay tonight. Perhaps listening to so much Bruckner prepared me for the sound world but I was hooked from the very first note and feel ready to explore more.

Jayne, which recording would you recommend?

With apologies for the length here, my comparisons from a few months ago when the Kaljuste set of 1-4 came out...

Sparer and swifter than the later N-Jarvi, which now seems too lush and comforting, Kaljuste’s sounds are earthier and more abnegating, the brass darker and more resonant, perfectly suited to the offices, or offerings, of the expression. The flowing tempi bring the feel of a Bach prelude more keenly to the ear.
Welser-Most with the pure-toned LPO is perhaps best of all in building the musical architecture, with a keen focus on the melodic lines and perfectly judged dynamic gradation; very impressive and beautifully recorded at Watford Coliseum.

N-Jarvi’s earlier recording has - uncompromising BIS sonics, quicker more urgent tempi and greater tonal intensity than the Gothenburg one…less lush, sharper and sparer, thereby serving the work far better. He is its dedicatee of course, and he seems to feel it here keenly, obviously more devotional and impassioned a reading than he draws from those so-opulent Gothenburgers.

All the same, P-Jarvi and Welser-Most are more convincing in both their architectural grasp - the longterm shaping into paragraph and climax - and their section-by-section intensity of phrase, looking after, and conducting, every note. Their recordings have greater weight and smoothness too.
Carping a little here - it is a very fine reading - but I just sense a typical N-Jarvi tendency to let some phrases and paragraphs look after themselves on the BIS recording. But for me it is by far the better of his two.

***
You could decide on couplings: Jarvi-pére's better Bamberg 3rd has the Cello Concerto, and Symphonies 1 and 2, "worth a listen" intriguing but not very distinctive; self-consciously "modernist", eclectically experimental & episodic (not always in a good way).
Jarvi-fils has a lovely selection of shorter orchestral works, some familiar (Fratres, Summa, the Cantus I.M etc) some less so (Silouans Song, Trisagion); but all so beautifully played and recorded they retain their idiomatic freshness (and if you enjoy playing through a whole disc, it is nicely planned too). Welser-Most has the very unusual Kancheli 3rd but again, it's hardly his best work - one for the devotees!
So if you want just one, for me it would be the ENSO/Paavo Järvi (Virgin), an album of prime Arvo Pärt with wonderful sound.

[Boilk]

This comment expresses nothing but ignorance and arrogance. How much of Pärt's work do you know, or of those other Estonian, Georgian, Polish and Russian composers like Kancheli, Gorecki or Gubaidulina, whose music will never satisfy conventional classical desires?

I’d like to think it expresses something different. First of all though, are you pigeonholing me as “conventional classical”? There are (e.g.) more Knussen, James Dillon, Panufnik and Pärt CDs combined on my shelves than there are Mozart, Brahms and Tchaikovsky CDs combined, so I don’t think my classical desires could be described as remotely “conventional”. I've known a fair bit of Pärt over the years and think I acquired my first recording on cassette courtesy of Radio 3 (Tabula Rasa) circa 1981 (that’s pre ECM releases!). And I chose Spiegel im Spiegel to be played at my father’s funeral, so I’m no New Minimalist philistine.

You can only listen to this music, and respond to it, on its own terms.

Agreed. But I think that could be said about possibly all music!

Its aims and achievements have little to do wth the mainstream Western European Concert Repertoire. Neither the 3rd or 4th Symphonies are especially short, recordings range between 20 - 30 minutes; some of his choral works are very much longer, and they express subtly variable shades of mood, but tend toward the inward and meditative, offering sound-objects, icons for contemplation.

Agreed again. Actually, my original post was making precisely the point (albeit indirectly) that the 3rd and 4th symphonies are NOT short works, and hence that for me his iconographic idiom is in its element only in more concise utterances. In bigger pieces there is a danger that unless you have mastery in shaping your iconographic roadmap (and I’m not sure that even the late and great Messiaen always had) the music can tend towards disjointedness, even ponderousness. And yes, evidently Pärt’s “aims and achievements have little to do with the mainstream Western European Concert Repertoire”. In fact amongst his generation he can wear this badge with honour as few can, but that only underscores the oddity of the composer choosing to shoe-horn his iconographic sound-objects into extended works called “symphony” – when the monicker “symphony” was for 200 years generally regarded as the supreme musical statement of that very Western European Concert tradition which he courageously turned his back on.

I think its ascetic and meditative qualities make most of Part’s music a good present-day example of Gebrauchmusik – in his case music to be used as a conduit for inner inspection (or thereabouts). But when placed on the concert stage and curated as high art both No.3 and No.4 simply overstay their welcome for me. In the former context I can think of finer Gebrauchmusik symphonies that have a spiritual agenda.

[jayne lee wilson]

Your fascinating and insightful reply makes me wonder all the more why you dismissed the Pärt 3rd and 4th as "duds"! (If you'd said it of 1 and 2, well....see above!) Of course, for me 3 and 4 flow beautifully in accordance with their own slower laws of motion, of recurrence. Catching the differently-angled light as they turn slowly through the air.

Don't they work very beautifully "on their own terms" i.e. against the concept of goal-oriented, teleological development of, say, a Sibelius 5th or "sonata"? I rather like the subversion implied by calling them "symphony", and placing them in concert halls - rather than - where? Churches, cathedrals? Your Gebrauchsmusik, confined to preaching to the converted?....
(Of course, by the mid- or later-20th Century, the "symphony" had become "anything a composer calls a symphony", but perhaps that's a different discussion... ).

But even if, like me, you listen exclusively at home, I think there's a listening habit we often bring to "classical music" to "the symphony" (of whatever date) to expect to have to work at it, concentrate, follow complexity and difficulty.... so why not offer something like its opposite in the same context - "symphony"- to try to silence the ceaseless chatter of our minds....

To be still... to dwell upon a single sound....a floating, drifting moment....a slowly recurring, circling shape...
Rather than that anxious back-and-forth mental tracing of what came from where, where's this headed - -

I hear Arvo Pärt's Symphony No.4 as a masterpiece of self-denial: sonically, emotionally, musically.

[LMcD]

I greatly enjoyed this Prom. They're pretty good for a 'pick-up' band, aren't they? Mr Järvi's comments on his approach to the particular problems that can arise when working with what one might call and ad hoc ensemble were most enlightening.

I thought the Grieg was exciting without verging into waywardness, and her approach was never disrespectful of the composer's original vision or intentions. Clearly, she's no Eric Morecambe , but still a very impressive performer. I would have benefited more from her discussion with TS had I been able to actually understand some of his questions (gabble, gabble, gabble....) I wouldn't have described this performance as 'incendiary', but that choice of adjective is in line with much of the regrettable hype that seems to accompany many of this year's concerts.

I was very impressed with the Sibelius, which was beautifully paced. Whether it was goal-oriented and teleological I really couldn't say. (I did meet the 't' word back in the day at uni - something to do with a shadow cast on the wall of a cave......?)

I wasn't sure what to make of the Arvo Pärt, but that's probably down to my unfamiliarity with the work and my general musical higgerance.

As regards the criticism of Tom Service ...it can be argued that he's perfectly entitled to persist with his eccentric style of presentation, but by the same token people are entitled to criticize him if they find that it gets in the way of their enjoyment and understanding of the performance. In my book, he has taken self-awareness to a new level. He's only slightly less irritating than the the flies that occasionally invade our kitchen.

[Richard Tarleton]

Agree in spades with all of the above. She was in the moment with the whole Concerto whether she was playing or not and as TS said created the piece anew. If she can play like this she can wear her hair just as she wishes. The Danielle de Niese of the keyboard came to mind; the rapt concentration of the whole hall came over in the Debussy, the sounds just hung there.
I thought TS excellent, getting better every time. He did just enough and generated enthusiasm for what was to come, and my word was he right.
PS. David Cameron got into trouble with a patronising comment like yours Richard T; it’s not worthy of you.

Agreed, and duly deleted

[Hornspieler]

I cannot believe what I have been reading here.

The concert began with what I can only describe as a non-event.

Symphony?- I think not.

Then one of my favourite and most loved piano concertos destroyed by the worse display of self conceit by a so-called prize winning soloist.

Dame Myra Hess must have been turning in her grave to hear the way that Edvard Grieg's masterpiece was savaged and distorted by this dreadful display self aggrandisement.

So,after a period of recovery, I was happy to enjoy a very reassuring rendition of Sibelius ' Fifth Symphony..

Neat and tidy - not mindboggling but acceptable to the listener.

I can see a promising future for this orchestra and Estonia has done well to assemble this mixed bunch of players to join the group of Scandinavian orchestras.

Good luck to them. I'm glad that I had the courage to return to this performance for an acceptable close to the evening.

HS

* Like father, like son? On the evidence of tonight's conducting?
Unfortunately not in my opinion