Prom 22: A London Symphony – 31.07.18

[edashtav]

I should, perhaps, reiterate my adoration of a lot of Elgar's work (not really In the South, but yes, including Dream of Gerontius, my first encounter of which was a life-changing experience) - I regard him as an internationally important composer. But he was content (and why not) to work in an aesthetic that was at a crossroads, and which could only be developed in means that Elgar was unable and unwilling to adopt. My last post (shades of the Pastoral Symphony! ) is purely an observation of Elgar's relatively self-contained tonal/harmonic style and RVW's Whitmanesque ever-exploring, "stop only for the undertaker" attitude.

We have been examining RVW’s early works because of the Proms have programmed symphonies 2 and 3 and TTUR(egion). I agree with you, strongly that RVW continued to practise lifelong learning and loosen and destroyed his ties to his antecedents. I remain incredulous that, at the age of almost 50, he was writing the Pastoral Symphony using themes as long as folk tunes, without realising the structural deficit they were causing. (That’s probably unfair as that flaw was missing from his F minor symphony which followed.)

I’d be more positive were I to review symphonies 4, 5, 6, or 8 and 9. It will be tomorrow before I complete my personal assessment of how RVW compares with his CONTEMPORARIES ( born 1862 to 1882, in my filter). Fascinatingly, that selection includes Claude Debussy whom I have promoted to your top dogs: Schönberg / Stravinsky, a favour bestowed also on RVW’s closer contemporary, Maurice Ravel.

[Lat-Literal]

I asked a number of posts ago for ten examples of composers of cowpat music which presumably in the main would be by "nostalgic conservatives".

Currently the score is zero - or 1 if you include RVW.

This is not so much positive psychedelia as an imaginary friend of some floating in unsubstantiated air.

[edashtav]

I asked a number of posts ago for ten examples of composers of cowpat music which presumably in the main would be by "nostalgic conservatives".

Currently the score is zero - or 1 if you include RVW.

This is not so much positive psychedelia as an imaginary friend of some floating in unsubstantiated air.

The Cowpat Club: RVW, Holst,Finzi,Ireland, Gurney, Peel, Gibbs, Dunhill, Grace Williams, Haydn Wood, Quilter, Milford, and Rubbra.

[Lat-Literal]

The Cowpat Club: RVW, Holst,Finzi,Ireland, Gurney, Peel, Gibbs, Dunhill, Grace Williams, Haydn Wood, Quilter, Milford, and Rubbra.

Some of those are going to raise eyebrows.

"The Old Chisholm Trail" is a cowboy song first published in 1910 by John Lomax in his book Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads. In 1919, his Songs of the Cattle Trail and Cow Camp, an anthology of cowboy poetry, was published by Macmillan. In 1911, Cecil Sharp founded the English Folk Dance Society but during the first world war he too was in the United States exploring music in places like Appalachia. The extent to which Sharp was a nationalist and/or a conservative isn't clear, not least because of the protective way of his companion Maud Karpeles. However, he had when at university been a Fabian Socialist some two and more years before the Fabian Society was even formed and he was a lifelong vegetarian. I mention these points because the years coincide with the 2nd symphony and they highlight parallel strands. Yes, those strands were often with cows but on the other side of an ocean.

Edward L. Crain - The Old Chisholm Trail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgWkVTwXqLo

[Lat-Literal]

The Cowpat Club: RVW, Holst,Finzi,Ireland, Gurney, Peel, Gibbs, Dunhill, Grace Williams, Haydn Wood, Quilter, Milford, and Rubbra.

I can't comment on each one but that seems quite diverse to me. I just don't get the inclusion of Holst. It could be doing him a disservice. Armstrong Gibbs is surely borderline light classical. Rubbra is highly individualistic although overtly rejected the twelve-tone technique so perhaps that is why he has been listed. Ireland can be stark and took from Russian as well as French influence. Williams doesn't really appear with anything until 1927 but there is an RVW link. I am struck by the omissions - no Grainger, no Moeran, no Delius, no Fenby, no Harrison, no Browne, no Holbrooke etc. not that I'm advocating a box for them. It could seem somewhat haphazard but thank you for providing an indication of how you feel.

[Pabmusic]

The Cowpat Club: RVW, Holst,Finzi,Ireland, Gurney, Peel, Gibbs, Dunhill, Grace Williams, Haydn Wood, Quilter, Milford, and Rubbra.

Oh! So 'Cowpat Club' implies no more than those who sometimes wrote in a style related to (or derived from) folk-music. You have certainly overlooked Moeran and Howells, and even I would concede that - if the CC were a reality - Butterworth would be there.

But of course it's not the reality. There are connexions between some of them. Finzi and Moeran admired Butterworth, and both wrote non-folk-tune rhapsodies following the eaxmple of A Shropshire Lad (Finzi's even quotes from Loveliest of Trees) and George hovers around Moeran's Violin Concerto. Dunhill taught, encouraged and admired Butterworth. But are you really suggesting a similarity of style between Holst and Quilter? Or Holst and RVW, come to that? Or between Rubbra and Gurney? Or...?

I am more than happy to demonstrate how Butterworth used lessons from folk-song to expand a style based mainly on Grieg and Debussy. How for instance he developed a sort of early minimalism based around modal harmonies that almost always contain added sixths or sevenths (it's really quite distinctive). How he forever plays very subtly with rhythm. How he handles the orchestra like large-scale chamber music (he was, I insist, one of Britain's very finest orchestrators).

But I'd prefer you to buy my book, which will be out in time for the centenary of the Armistice. :)

The point I'm really making is that we impose labels on things (human brains are wonderfully evolved pattern-seeking machines - that's why Jesus or Elvis appear on so many pieces of toast). None of the composers you've listed would have considered they were copying or being guided by another's music. They would no doubt have insisted they were writing their own music in the best way they could. For us decades later to pass judgement on them - not for the individual pieces, but for their belonging to a wholly artificial notion of style (and a highly perjorative one at that) is egregious.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I remain incredulous that, at the age of almost 50, he was writing the Pastoral Symphony using themes as long as folk tunes, without realising the structural deficit they were causing.

I fear that any "deficit" in this instance is not in RVW's structural subtleties, but in your perception of these, ed.

[Pabmusic]

Some of those are going to raise eyebrows.

"The Old Chisholm Trail" is a cowboy song first published in 1910 by John Lomax in his book Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads. In 1919, his Songs of the Cattle Trail and Cow Camp, an anthology of cowboy poetry, was published by Macmillan. In 1911, Cecil Sharp founded the English Folk Dance Society but during the first world war he too was in the United States exploring music in places like Appalachia. The extent to which Sharp was a nationalist and/or a conservative isn't clear, not least because of the protective way of his companion Maud Karpeles. However, he had when at university been a Fabian Socialist some two and more years before the Fabian Society was even formed and he was a lifelong vegetarian. I mention these points because the years coincide with the 2nd symphony and they highlight parallel strands. Yes, those strands were often with cows but on the other side of an ocean.

Edward L. Crain - The Old Chisholm Trail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgWkVTwXqLo

Cecil Sharp was already Director of the Folk Song Society when he founded the Folk Dance Society - he'd taken over from Lucy Broadwood some years before. In the 1890s he'd been Director of the Hampstead Conservertoire of Music, one of whose students was Arnold Bax.

Sharp had written three operettas and had all thee staged in Adelaide!

[LMcD]

The Cowpat Club: RVW, Holst,Finzi,Ireland, Gurney, Peel, Gibbs, Dunhill, Grace Williams, Haydn Wood, Quilter, Milford, and Rubbra.

I would definitely include Beethoven ('Pastoral Symphony'), Smetana ('From Bohemia's Woods and Fields') and Mahler (Ging heut morgen übers Feld'), all of whom must have trodden on something at some time. Oh yes, and Gershwin, whose dog probably made things worse when he was out walking it. It's a well-known fact that Gershwin came up with the idea of a poop scoop for bovine faeces, but fortunately lacked the funds to proceed with the patent application that would have made him a fortune but robbed us of many great songs.

[Pabmusic]

An obvious candidate for the Cowpat Club is John Field. I was going to add Michael William Barf - but that's the wrong end, isn't it? Cipriani Pooper maybe? Or Sir Arthur Slurrivan?

[LMcD]

An obvious candidate for the Cowpat Club is John Field. I was going to add Michael William Barf - but that's the wrong end, isn't it? Cipriani Pooper maybe? Or Sir Arthur Slurrivan?

Not forgetting Samuel S****** (1587-1654).
Elgar also surely qualifies, as we can't be certain that his much-pampered dog didn't leave the odd message lying around.

[Pabmusic]

Not forgetting Samuel S****** (1587-1654).
Elgar also surely qualifies, as we can't be certain that his much-pampered dog didn't leave the odd message lying around.

Well, Elgar's an interesting case that surely supports Ed's dislike of bovine scatalogical music. Elgar loved dogs and always owned one - before and after his marriage. But not during it, because Alice forbade it (she loathed dogs). And all his great music, from Salut d'Amour (1888) to the Cello Concerto (1919) was written then.

[Lat-Literal]

William Bergsma was of Frisian descent.

Doyle, Hadley, Hawes, Jonathan and Nunn are all British composing Pats - along with Paul Patterson almost.

Then there was dear old John Bull himself.

I say "was"...…...God Save the King!

Over on Kiteflyer's Hill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMpu8jH1LE8

(Ermintrude's Folly - positively psychedelic)

[Pabmusic]

And sitting in the outhouse with the Sunday paper - Arthur Bliss.

I did think there was a composer called Phil Septic-Tank, but I might be mis-remembering.

[Alain Maréchal]

I did think there was a composer called Phil Septic-Tank, but I might be mis-remembering.

Did he not compose L'horizon chimiquier ?