Prom 22: A London Symphony – 31.07.18

[edashtav]

ed - you seem determined to include RVW amongst Lutyens' intended targets in her coinage of "The Cowpat School". Where, in her Dartington Lecture - as opposed to the Oxford Concise Dictionary's summary of it - does she include RVW, as opposed to his lesser followers?

I’m reliant on third hand reports but there is evidence from other folk that there was less than love between Lutyens and RVW. Was it not Dorothy Gow who remarked that, at the RCM, those putative composers with talent were sent to RVW, whereas those without , e.g. Lutyens, were bound to Harold Darke?

Lutyens was never part of the close group of female composers e.g. Grace Williams and Maconchy who were taught by RVW and Lizzie expressed her annoyance at not being within their fold.

I believe that Sir Hugh Allen and RVW saw Lizzie as a bit of a joke. Hence their barbs and her Cowpat response.
I seem to remember that Lutyens mocked RVW and all things Cowpat in a wartime suite.

[edashtav]

Sorry, ferney, my typo... the date of Steve Smith’s article was 2008.

[LMcD]

Sorry, ferney, my typo... the date of Steve Smith’s article was 2008.

...from which I quote: 'The Lutyens pronouncement is better remembered than any of her compositions'

Still, I guess it's better to be remembered for that than to be forgotten completely, like ....what's his name?

[Serial_Apologist]

Given that Britain was one of the first nations to undertake the Industrial Revolution, with its concomitant assault on not just rural landscapes and, with mass population movements to the burgeoning cities where the industrial working class was formed, pastoral ways of life, but entire ecosystems, with longterm consequences demonstrating Britain to have been at the forefront of geoenvironmental processes leading to mass pollution and climate change, the periodic harking back to past times mythologised as more in harmony with the natural order should have had strong resonance here, and I would have thought is a strong contender for keeping Vaughan Williams, and the deeper philosophies underpinning his and Holst's aesthetic, in the limelight.

[edashtav]

I suggest that Lutyens would have included RVW amongst those conservatives who she suggested after WWII were

‘trying to keep England free of the moderns, free for Elgar, the Three Choirs Festival, England and St. George’.

Some such folk remain and I feel that their influence has helped to shape this year’s Proms.

[LMcD]

Given that Britain was one of the first nations to undertake the Industrial Revolution, with its concomitant assault on not just rural landscapes and, with mass population movements to the burgeoning cities where the industrial working class was formed, pastoral ways of life, but entire ecosystems, with longterm consequences demonstrating Britain to have been at the forefront of geoenvironmental processes leading to mass pollution and climate change, the periodic harking back to past times mythologised as more in harmony with the natural order should have had strong resonance here, and I would have thought is a strong contender for keeping Vaughan Williams, and the deeper philosophies underpinning his and Holst's aesthetic, in the limelight.

I think that Messrs Manze and Brabbins will help keep him there.

[Pabmusic]

I’m reliant on third hand reports but there is evidence from other folk that there was less than love between Lutyens and RVW. Was it not Dorothy Gow who remarked that, at the RCM, those putative composers with talent were sent to RVW, whereas those without , e.g. Lutyens, were bound to Harold Darke?...

Did Darke teach at the RCM? He seemed to be tied to Cambridge. Are you thinking of R. O. Morris (who was Lutyens' tutor and RVW's brother-in-law).

Morris's best man at his wedding in 1915 was his lifelong friend whom he'd first met at dancing classes in York when both boys were 6, volunteered with in 1914, and who was a fellow officer in the same battallion of the Durham Light Infantry - George Butterworth.

[edashtav]

Given that Britain was one of the first nations to undertake the Industrial Revolution, with its concomitant assault on not just rural landscapes and, with mass population movements to the burgeoning cities where the industrial working class was formed, pastoral ways of life, but entire ecosystems, with longterm consequences demonstrating Britain to have been at the forefront of geoenvironmental processes leading to mass pollution and climate change, the periodic harking back to past times mythologised as more in harmony with the natural order should have had strong resonance here, and I would have thought is a strong contender for keeping Vaughan Williams, and the deeper philosophies underpinning his and Holst's aesthetic, in the limelight.

I can understand your point of view, S_A , and do not wish to remove either RVW or Holst from attention, but neither composer consistently hit the button and Ralph was extremely slow to mature. My gripe is over-exposure compared with the appalling neglect this year of the more important 2nd Viennese School, particularly as the Proms are marketed as an International Music Festival.

[edashtav]

Did Darke teach at the RCM? He seemed to be tied to Cambridge. Are you thinking of R. O. Morris (who was Lutyens' tutor and RVW's brother-in-law).

Morris's best man at his wedding in 1915 was his lifelong friend whom he'd first met at dancing classes in York when both boys were 6, volunteered with in 1914, and who was a fellow officer in the same battallion of the Durham Light Infantry - George Butterworth.

I was quoting wiki, Pabmusic:
Elisabeth Lutyens was born in London in 1906. She was one of the five children of the architect Sir Edwin Lutyens and his wife Emily, who was involved in the Theosophical Movement. From 1911 the young Jiddu Krishnamurti was living in their London house as a friend of Elisabeth and her sisters. At age nine she began to aspire to be a composer. In 1922, Lutyens pursued her musical education at the École Normale de Musique de Paris, before accompanying her mother to India in 1923. On her return she studied with John Foulds and subsequently continued her musical education from 1926 to 1930 at the Royal College of Music in London as a pupil of Harold Darke.

Perhaps, this entry needs to be challenged!

[LMcD]

I can understand your point of view, S_A , and do not wish to remove either RVW or Holst from attention, but neither composer consistently hit the button and Ralph was extremely slow to mature. My gripe is over-exposure compared with the appalling neglect this year of the more important 2nd Viennese School, particularly as the Proms are marketed as an International Music Festival.

Yup, the 'Sea Symphony' is SUCH a juvenile piece. And don't get me started on the vastly overrated 'Tallis Fantasia'....
Sorry it took me so long to realize that somebody's tongue is very firmly in somebody's cheek.

[HighlandDougie]

Did Darke teach at the RCM? He seemed to be tied to Cambridge. Are you thinking of R. O. Morris (who was Lutyens' tutor and RVW's brother-in-law).

Morris's best man at his wedding in 1915 was his lifelong friend whom he'd first met at dancing classes in York when both boys were 6, volunteered with in 1914, and who was a fellow officer in the same battallion of the Durham Light Infantry - George Butterworth.

To quote the biography of EL by Meirion and Susan Harries ("A Pilgrim Soul", 1989): "(Sir Hugh Allen, Director of the RCM) sent her to Harold Darke who was primarily an organist and teacher of harmony and counterpoint ... She came to be very grateful for Allen's choice. Dr Darke, delighted to diversify into teaching composition, promoted her music vigorously ....".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I’m reliant on third hand reports

Go on with yer! I'd never have guessed.

but there is evidence from other folk that there was less than love between Lutyens and RVW.

Which is not at all the same as the mutual dislike that you seem desperate to believe in. They were professional colleagues, corresponded quite regularly with mutual respect; and Lutyens used Ursula Vaughan Williams' texts for her own compositions.

Was it not Dorothy Gow who remarked that, at the RCM, those putative composers with talent were sent to RVW, whereas those without , e.g. Lutyens, were bound to Harold Darke?

I don't know - but what has this to do with the professional relationship in later years? Lutyens was a late developer, whose Music as she became a student wasn't impressive; there'd be no chance of her becoming one of RVW's students.

Lutyens was never part of the close group of female composers e.g. Grace Williams and Maconchy who were taught by RVW and Lizzie expressed her annoyance at not being within their fold.

Lutyens was never "Lizzie" except to her (many) detractors - to her family and friends she was "Betty". I do not know of any expressions of "annoyance" at being so "left out", but if these do exist, then doesn't it blow up your notion that Lutyens held RVW's Music in contempt? (And Lutyens was part of a "fold" - with Lemare & Macnaughten, she founded a series of concerts devoted to present the work of her contemporaries - including Williams and Maconchy.) And I'm not sure if you're thinking that Williams and Maconchy were also included in the Cowpat School?

I believe that Sir Hugh Allen and RVW saw Lizzie as a bit of a joke. Hence their barbs and her Cowpat response. I seem to remember that Lutyens mocked RVW and all things Cowpat in a wartime suite.

I suggest that Lutyens would have included RVW amongst those conservatives who she suggested after WWII were
‘trying to keep England free of the moderns, free for Elgar, the Three Choirs Festival, England and St. George’.

I would prefer at least some first-hand evidence to support such "beliefs", "seemings to remember" and "suggestions", ed. But that's probably just me being pernickety.

[edashtav]

Yup, the 'Sea Symphony' is SUCH a juvenile piece. And don't get me started on the vastly overrated 'Tallis Fantasia'....
Sorry it took me so long to realize that somebody's tongue is very firmly in somebody's cheek.

C’mon,LMcD, there is good evidence that RVW looked upon his Sea Symphony as an apprentice piece. You will know that for decades the composer did not list it amongst his numbered symphonies and it was pressure from his publisher (O.U.P.) to award it a number that caused RVW to accept it as #1.

I agree with you that the Tallis Fantasia is a masterpiece.

[LMcD]

We'll NEVER get anywhere as a nation if we persist in listening to Elgar or attending the Three Choirs Festival. It's time we WOKE UP and MOVED FORWARD - say to the 1950s (One step at a time - leave us not be too hasty).

[LMcD]

C’mon,LMcD, there is good evidence that RVW looked upon his Sea Symphony as an apprentice piece. You will know that for decades the composer did not list it amongst his numbered symphonies and it was pressure from his publisher (O.U.P.) to award it a number that caused RVW to accept it as #1.

I agree with you that the Tallis Fantasia is a masterpiece.

Are composers necessarily the best judge of their own works? If the Sea Symphony is an apprentice piece, how would you describe his earlier Walt Whitman setting - schoolboy scribbling, perhaps?