Prom 22: A London Symphony – 31.07.18

[Pabmusic]

Just for the record, the conductor at Harrogate of the 2nd performance of VW's A London Symphony was Julian Clifford (1877-1921), conductor of the Harrogate Municipal Orchestra, and not Julius Harrison.

Thanks. It was. My memory... (He also conducted the Hastings Municipal Orchestra. Just imagine if the both still existed).

[Nick Armstrong]

I thought it would be nice to email the BBC SSO to express my appreciation of the Vaughan Williams. They not only replied quickly, but informed me that the content of my message would be pinned on the players' noticeboard and also forwarded to Andrew Manze. I've never written to an orchestra before, but felt that this particular performance merited my personal congratulations.

Very good move LMcD!

[pureimagination]

Isn't it wonderful to read so many contributions enthusing about this Prom and the performers. It's enough to make me forget about edashtav's stupid reference to "Cowpat and Yorkshire Pudding Music" (which he also made in regards to Prom 17) and to the posts about the coughers not being British! - but not quite. The Proms are there for anyone who wishes to attend and okay distractions like coughing [wherever they occur - mid piece or between movements] can be annoying but to imply indirectly that the Proms audience should be only be attended by a select breed of British devotees to the exclusion of any one else unless they know how to behave or should be barred if they are only attending as part of their 'bucket list itinerary'!!!
I especially want to praise pabmusic for his contributions. Thanks for your knowledgable insights/info. I'm glad so many enjoyed this Prom and wished to share their thoughts/feelings with others.

[Serial_Apologist]

Isn't it wonderful to read so many contributions enthusing about this Prom and the performers. It's enough to make me forget about edashtav's stupid reference to "Cowpat and Yorkshire Pudding Music" (which he also made in regards to Prom 17) and to the posts about the coughers not being British! - but not quite. The Proms are there for anyone who wishes to attend and okay distractions like coughing [wherever they occur - mid piece or between movements] can be annoying but to imply indirectly that the Proms audience should be only be attended by a select breed of British devotees to the exclusion of any one else unless they know how to behave or should be barred if they are only attending as part of their 'bucket list itinerary'!!!
I especially want to praise pabmusic for his contributions. Thanks for your knowledgable insights/info. I'm glad so many enjoyed this Prom and wished to share their thoughts/feelings with others.

(But surely you mean "British Cowpat and Yorkshire Pudding Music devotees"??? )

[BBMmk2]

Anybody know what their email is?

[zola]

Anybody know what their email is?

Message 99 on this thread.

[Pabmusic]

...
I especially want to praise pabmusic for his contributions. Thanks for your knowledgable insights/info...

You're very kind, but what's the use of such knowledge if you don't share it?

[Lat-Literal]

On the comments about American movies etc: A lot of strands - Copland for very obvious reasons liked the Eastern Europeans - but I think Nadia Boulanger. Someday, there will be a thesis on how she shaped large chunks of 20th Century music. Although my knowledge is slight, I'm starting to realise she was "immense". I'd see a Boulanger-Copland-Moross route.

The position re Gershwin is more complex. Ravel who is one of many behind RVW said he had nothing to add to Gershwin who was perfect enough and Boulanger said likewise although I think the latter did have inputs. They were aware of the jazz influence. They didn't want to disturb it. Perhaps they even saw jazz as a natural successor to classical music. I don't know but in a roundabout way as with much else Nadia who was "only a woman" via Copland - and she would have been immensely disappointed but I think it is magnificent - is in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQTH3a0mjR8

The thing I feel about American classical music - and it extends to movie music - is that there is a unique dialogue of flow and sway. How much are they taking in? How much are they expanding across their domain and then across the world or back again? The second New England school does its best to introspect and be math. It never gets away from that debate.

I'm not sure what the ultimate insular symphony would be. It might be a Sessions or a Schuman; even a Fine or a Lees. I came to the conclusion that the ultimate post Copland US "expanse" was Samuel Jones 3. Cowell is obviously dabbling a lot with external influence as is McPhee on occasion with Brittan but he is Canadian and I do opt for Lou Harrison 3 and 4.

The Hollywood film industry is surely in motive from its earliest days international - it wanted to sell and sell and wide : all comedy is Jewish, Irish and British - and then Eastern Europe enters the fray, Dvorak etc; immensely talent Jewish people in the main whose creative abilities, when internationalist, are cast aside for a stereotypical and racist money-making trope.

(Incidentally, I was a bit surprised by my friend ferney's reaction to the mentioning of Corigliano on another thread - while not quite my cup of tea, I do think he has "got something")

[Lat-Literal]

One day, I must do my top ten of symphonies - I think this comparative nonentity might well be in there.

Samuel Jones - Symphony No. 3 - "Palo Duro Canyon" (1992)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiGNcHLEgKc

On a predictable note, Sib 5 is probably now up to second....and I will never understand how I took to American classical music as it was so unexpected but that is the joy of discovery!

I'm way off topic but Harrison 3 is America looking outwards and absorbing and it is the epitome in its field : what it does is take the dabbling Cowells etc into the "be serious" domain:

Lou Harrison - Symphony No 3 - (1982) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27I8YOlRZSM

(and it is definitely in my top 10, while admitting it is an acquired taste)

[Pabmusic]

One day, I must do my top ten of symphonies - I think this comparative nonentity might well be in there.

Samuel Jones - Symphony No. 3 - "Palo Duro Canyon" (1992)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiGNcHLEgKc

On a predictable note, Sib 5 is probably now up to second....and I will never understand how I took to American classical music as it was so unexpected but that is the joy of discovery!

I'm way off topic but Harrison 3 is America looking outwards and absorbing and it is the epitome in its field : what it does is take the dabbling Cowells etc into the "be serious" domain:

Lou Harrison - Symphony No 3 - (1982) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27I8YOlRZSM

(and it is definitely in my top 10, while admitting it is an acquired taste)

Top tens are difficult because they change wirh mood (at least mine do).

Good idea for a thread, Lat.

[Sir Velo]

It's enough to make me forget about edashtav's stupid reference to "Cowpat and Yorkshire Pudding Music" (which he also made in regards to Prom 17) and to the posts about the coughers not being British! - but not quite.

Not for the first time I think this contributor has engaged keyboard first, brain later in a rather obvious attempt to be amusing and/or provocative. Best to ignore and, as you put it, appreciate the insights of other more perceptive, less attention seeking members.

[edashtav]

Not for the first time I think this contributor has engaged keyboard first, brain later in a rather obvious attempt to be amusing and/or provocative. Best to ignore and, as you put it, appreciate the insights of other more perceptive, less attention seeking members.

Not entirely correct, Sir Velo, my brain did engage in two ways: my mention of cowpat music was an echo of the phrase Elizabeth Lutyens used at the Darlington School of Music in the 1950s; my use was deliberate because I was, and am, shocked to find such an imbalance between the many examples of the English Pastoral School in the Proms prospectus for this year compared with the dearth of works composed by the Second Viennese School ( Berg 0; Schönberg 0, Webern 1). The former School is of local / parochial significance; the latter created a world revolution in music. I’ve yet to write about the absence of Pierre Boulez. It’s as if the BBC has forgotten the valuable work done by William Glock and returned to being Little Englanders. Yes, I was being provocative, but my reaction was not hare-brained.

[cloughie]

Not entirely correct, Sir Velo, my brain did engage in two ways: my mention of cowpat music was an echo of the phrase Elizabeth Lutyens used at the Darlington School of Music in the 1950s; my use was deliberate because I was, and am, shocked to find such an imbalance between the many examples of the English Pastoral School in the Proms prospectus for this year compared with the dearth of works composed by the Second Viennese School ( Berg 0; Schönberg 0, Webern 1). The former School is of local / parochial significance; the latter created a world revolution in music. I’ve yet to write about the absence of Pierre Boulez. It’s as if the BBC has forgotten the valuable work done by William Glock and returned to being Little Englanders. Yes, I was being provocative, but my reaction was not hare-brained.

Well Ed this is the Proms, this is England. The orchestras and conductors deliver what you chose to call cowpat music very well and long may they do so. (They also do very good R Strauss and Mahler). I don’t know the answer to this but how much Vaughan Williams, Holst and similar is played in Vienna?

[Bryn]

Not entirely correct, Sir Velo, my brain did engage in two ways: my mention of cowpat music was an echo of the phrase Elizabeth Lutyens used at the Darlington School of Music in the 1950s; my use was deliberate because I was, and am, shocked to find such an imbalance between the many examples of the English Pastoral School in the Proms prospectus for this year compared with the dearth of works composed by the Second Viennese School ( Berg 0; Schönberg 0, Webern 1). The former School is of local / parochial significance; the latter created a world revolution in music. I’ve yet to write about the absence of Pierre Boulez. It’s as if the BBC has forgotten the valuable work done by William Glock and returned to being Little Englanders. Yes, I was being provocative, but my reaction was not hare-brained.

One of Twelve-Tone Lizzie's sillier remarks, especially when taken up to refer to a work such as RVW's Pastoral. In the current context it is even sillier. London, even in the first half of the 20th Century, was not noted for its proliferation of cowpats.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I haven't heard of ed's "Elizabeth Lutyens", but Elisabeth Lutyens and Ralph Vaughan Williams were on at least friendly terms, and RVW's Music was not included in Lutyens' coining (which referred to the plethora of English composers who lazily followed in his wake). It might even be that Lutyens came up with her phrase as a rejoinder after RVW had teased her enthusiasm for Bartok and Berg by describing such composers as the "Wrong-Note School". And it was, in fact, Philip Heseltine who in specific reference to RVW's Pastoral described it as "like a cow looking over a gate" (or "staring" or "gazing" - different sources give different verbs). A silly (to nick Bryn's word; my own would be far less considered) description based on superficial and slovenly half-listening.