Prom 22: A London Symphony – 31.07.18

[Bryn]

Thank you PBS for two interesting posts. The link however, is not accessible.

Copied and pasted into my browser it worked fine for me. No promises, but try here.

[Pabmusic]

Copied and pasted into my browser it worked fine for me. No promises, but try here.

Thanks, Bryn.

[makropulos]

The BBC orchestras never do encores at the Proms for some reason.

"Never" is a strong word - and it's not true. I was at the Prom on 7 September 1973 and 13 August 1974, both occasions when Boult conducted The Planets in the second half, and both with the BBCSO. At one of them (I think 1974), Sir Adrian did an encore of The Dambusters March. The online Proms Archive doesn't mention this, which is a shame. I'm sure some other forum members were there too and can perhaps confirm that it was the 1974 performance?

[Sir Velo]

"Never" is a strong word - and it's not true. I was at the Prom on 7 September 1973 and 13 August 1974, both occasions when Boult conducted The Planets in the second half, and both with the BBCSO. At one of them (I think 1974), Sir Adrian did an encore of The Dambusters March.

You must admit that's hardly evidence of current practice!

[Serial_Apologist]

I can't recall the programme for March 27th 1914 at the Queen's Hall, but I've posted it before. It began:

Delius: In a Summer Garden

RVW: A London Symphony

Bax: Three Songs

Ravel: Valses Nobles et Sentimentales.

And that was the first half!

I remember mention, from a week when RVW and Holst were Composer of the Week, of a correspondence from Gustav to Ralph about that concert, praising his friend in glowing "you've really achieved it this time" terms, having first remarked on the "tawdriness" of Ravel's own orchestration of his Valses!

[Serial_Apologist]

You must admit that's hardly evidence of current practice!

- in more than one sense!

[Pabmusic]

I remember mention, from a week when RVW and Holst were Composer of the Week, of a correspondence from Gustav to Ralph about that concert, praising his friend in glowing "you've really achieved it this time" terms, having first remarked on the "tawdriness" of Ravel's own orchestration of his Valses!

It's a lovely story, and true too. It's a letter dated March 29th (the premiere had been on 27th). He describes the Ravel as "futile and tawdry".

Here's Butterworth on 28th:

My dear Ralph,

Among all the debauch of last night's congratulations and mutual pattings on the back, I really had nothing much to add, but should now like to tell you how frightfully glad I am that you have at last achieved something worthy of your gifts (I refer to the work & its performance jointly, for after all a work cannot be a fine one until ot is finely played - and it is still possible that the Sea Symphony & the Mystical Songs may turn out equally well - but at present they are not in the same class).

I really advise you not to alter a note of the Symph : until after its second performance (which is bound to come soon) - the passages I kicked at didn't bother me at all, because the music as a whole is so definite that a little occasional meandering is pleasant rather than otherwise. As to the scoring, I frankly don't understand how it all comes off so well, but it does all sound right, so there's nothing more to be said.

One practical result is that you have turned the Ellis concerts from a doubtful into a certain success and I hope he will announce another series soon, & perhaps start a guarantee fund.

Meanwhile here's to Symph no 2!

Yours

George B.

The last quip ("here's to Symph no 2!") is clearly meant as "here's to the next one". It's one of several things that strongly suggest that neither GSKB nor RVW thought of the London as anything but the first. RVW committed two accounts of its genesis to print. First, he wrote to Sir Alexander Kaye Butterworth in January 1918, enclosing an essay for inclusion in the Memorial Volume. At the end of a social evening George rises to leave and says in his gruff way "You know - you should write a symphony..." RVW replies that he never had, and had no intention of starting one. (In 1934 he published this story in his Musical Autobiography, where he adds that, in fact, he had written three movements of one, and one of another - "all now thankfully lost") Nowhere does he acknowledge A Sea Symphony. Of course the years and general usage eroded that position, but RVW was forced to give a number to the D minor symphony in 1956 because OUP insisted - and by then Decca had recorded seven, starting with the Sea. So the new one officially became number 8.

Younger people helped a lot. RVW showed Butterworth all the music as it was written, and acknowledged what a good critic he was (no surprise he asked the young man to "revise" the score before the parts were produced). Arnold Bax wrote a passage or an oboe countermelody (accounts vary) in the slow movement, but RVW changed it because it sounded too Baxian. And Parry (who attended the first performance) records in his diary that Bob Schuster (a friend of Butterworth) sat next to him and told him that parts of the symphony had been written by other young composers. Oh! to find that lost original score!

[Bevis Ellis, who funded the concerts, was a great admirer of Richard Strauss; Bax recalled that Butterworth told him that he (Bax) was the only person Ellis would permit to criticise his idol! Ellis was killed at Thiepval Ridge some five weeks after Butterworth died at Pozières.]

[BBMmk2]

After RVWs premier of his Tallis work, didn’t Howells and Holst wander the streets gobsmack?

[Pabmusic]

After RVWs premier of his Tallis work, didn’t Howells and Holst wander the streets gobsmack?

I thought it was Howells & Gurney, but I'll check.

[edit]

The Tallis opened the concert, conducted by RVW. Then Elgar conducted Gerontius. So by the time whoever it was wandered ecstatically round Gloucester, they'd had 2 hours of sublime music, and the Tallis was at the start. So I suspect hyperbole here.

[Stanfordian]

I thought it was Howells & Gurney, but I'll check.

[edit]

The Tallis opened the concert, conducted by RVW. Then Elgar conducted Gerontius. So by the time whoever it was wandered ecstatically round Gloucester, they'd had 2 hours of sublime music, and the Tallis was at the start. So I suspect hyperbole here.

Yes, it was Howells and Gurney.

The Tallis Fantasia despite being played almost to death on CFM is a glorious work that I never tire of hearing.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, it was Howells and Gurney.

The Tallis Fantasia despite being played almost to death on CFM is a glorious work that I never tire of hearing.

Thanks! Saves me opening books... :)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just bumping this up to the top of the pile in anticipation of tonight's "London Symphony" concert.

Not that I advocate binge/saturation concerts, but I suppose you could have a single concert containing different versions on VW's A London Symphony.

[Serial_Apologist]

Just bumping this up to the top of the pile in anticipation of tonight's "London Symphony" concert.

Not that I advocate binge/saturation concerts, but I suppose you could have a single concert containing different versions on VW's A London Symphony.

I'm only aware of 2: an original version, which I have not heard, and the one he considered the official one - would I be right?

[LMcD]

I'm only aware of 2: an original version, which I have not heard, and the one he considered the official one - would I be right?

Original version finished 1913 first performed 1914
Reconstructed version first performed 1915 (original full score lost)
Revised in 1918, 1920 and 1933
'Revised Edition' published mid-1930s.

[Bryn]

I'm only aware of 2: an original version, which I have not heard, and the one he considered the official one - would I be right?

There is also the 1920 version, recorded a couple of years ago by Dutton, IIRC.

Yes, just dug my copy out: RSNO, Yates, coupled with the 2 piano version of the piano concerto:



This January 2015 recording clamis to be the first ever.