Proms 2018

[teamsaint]

Going back to the OP and the article, it seems to me that the issue isn't that places like the Proms, RFH, Barbican are particularly intimidating, or that audience expectations of
other peoples behaviour are especially problematic. If you wander into the RFH with an enquiring mind, and ask for a ticket to a concert, you'll very l likely find the staff helpful, and a cheap ticket available . Same goes for the Proms.
The problem is in the belief that these are intimidating , difficult places, which is no more true than it is of many other places such as rock concerts,folk gigs ( draught lager anybody?) for an " outsider". A much more helpful approach might have been to highlight the very accessibility of the music in terms of venue , tickets,prices , behaviour norms . And reinforcing the incorrect belief that the audiences are unwelcoming is also unhelpful. My experience is that audiences at places like the RFH, Anvil, Lighthouse etc may tend conform to a certain demographic, but also that those people are almost always keen to discuss, question, share their views and expertise, and actively want more diverse audiences. I hear people say this all the time. They are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

[Bryn]

Going back to the OP and the article, it seems to me that the issue isn't that places like the Proms, RFH, Barbican are particularly intimidating, or that audience expectations of
other peoples behaviour are especially problematic. If you wander into the RFH with an enquiring mind, and ask for a ticket to a concert, you'l very l likely find the staff helpful, and a cheap ticket available . Same goes for the Proms.
The problem is in the belief that these are intimidating , difficult places, which is no more true than it is of many other places such as rock concerts,folk gigs ( draught lager anybody?) for an " outsider". A much more helpful approach might have been to highlight the very accessibility of the music in terms of venue , tickets,prices likely expected behaviour . And reinforcing the incorrect belief that the audiences are unwelcoming is also unhelpful. My experience is that audiences at places like the RFH, Anvil, Lighthouse etc may tend conform to a certain demographic, but also that those people are almost always keen to discuss, question, share their views and expertise, and actively want more diverse audiences. I hear people say this all the time. They are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Well said, and this is especially true of the Proms, even more so of the day queues (and the season queue is not as cliquey as it is sometimes perceived to be). The occasional mid-week Late Night Prom on BBC1 would do no harm, either.

[cloughie]

Well said, and this is especially true of the Proms, even more so of the day queues (and the season queue is not as cliquey as it is sometimes perceived to be). The occasional mid-week Late Night Prom on BBC1 would do no harm, either.

Good points there ts and Bryn. Or maybe on R2 or 6 maybe some Shostakovich, Stravinsky or Prokofiev but with a bit of spike to it, a little away from ‘smooth classics’.

[Bryn]

Good points there ts and Bryn. Or maybe on R2 or 6 maybe some Shostakovich, Stravinsky or Prokofiev but with a bit of spike to it, a little away from ‘smooth classics’.

Indeed, even Glass or Reich. I think the Young Musician 40th Anniversary Prom would have gone down very well on 6Music.

[Beef Oven!]

Well said, and this is especially true of the Proms, even more so of the day queues (and the season queue is not as cliquey as it is sometimes perceived to be). The occasional mid-week Late Night Prom on BBC1 would do no harm, either.

Oh yes, affable aren't they? I had a jolly nice pre-concert and interval chat with a couple chaps that I was sitting next to at an RHA gig. Exchanged ideas, agreed some mutual points, all very nice. Towards the end of the encore, I took a few snaps of the guys on stage, and at the end of the performance. As we got up to leave, I started the standard 'nice to have met you and I enjoyed the conversation' parting game and was met with stony looks, both had faces like a smacked arse, and the pair of them said they'd found my taking photos 'distracting'. At the end of the encore FFS! Any affable bamnter etc counted for nothing, they were just excercised that I had broken a 'protocol'. Yes, affable in queues, only to eager to share their wisdom, ya, ya, ya, but cross that line and they'll go for you. This is the problem. You don't get this shit at rock gigs. There's something wrong with the attitude and behaviour of so many classical concert goers. That's the reality of it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh yes, affable aren't they? I had a jolly nice pre-concert and interval chat with a couple chaps that I was sitting next to at an RHA gig. Exchanged ideas, agreed some mutual points, all very nice. Towards the end of the encore, I took a few snaps of the guys on stage, and at the end of the performance. As we got up to leave, I started the standard 'nice to have met you and I enjoyed the conversation' parting game and was met with stony looks, both had faces like a smacked arse, and the pair of them said they'd found my taking photos 'distracting'. At the end of the encore FFS! Any affable bamnter etc counted for nothing, they were just excercised that I had broken a 'protocol'. Yes, affable in queues, only to eager to share their wisdom, ya, ya, ya, but cross that line and they'll go for you. This is the problem. You don't get this shit at rock gigs. There's something wrong with the attitude and behaviour of so many classical concert goers. That's the reality of it.

Never used to be like that back in the 1960s, when, living at great expense (£5 per week!) in a bedsit not 2 minutes away (19 Elvaston Place, but there's no plaque), I would regularly take a group of newly made acquaintainces round the corner to the mews pub where one could get decent cold beer quicker than in the sweaty overcrowded RAH bar. Met some interesting people too, that way!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(19 Elvaston Place, but there's no plaque)

Well, dentistry's improved since the '60s.

[jean]

Not only at other festivals but at concerts throughout the UK, Europe and tbe world. Not every concert, and not at every Prom, but at some...

More asserions without any evidence!

'Festivals' of course can cover many different kinds of event, but my experience of attending symphony concerts abroad is that you get the embarrassed inter-movement ripple much as you do here -very rarely, and none of it done with any conviction.

The last concert I took part in abroad was a performance of the Victoria Requiem in Spain last month. Before the concert I was a bit worried that the Spanish might have adopted the practice that's crept in here, of applauding every movement of a Mass. But I needn't have worried - they sat on their hands with admirable restraint.

As for symphony concerts in this country, in this city Vasily Petrenko has made it very clear that he does not favour applause between movements, and while audiences have greatly increased in size during his tenure and include many young people never seen before, it's very rare to hear applause in the wrong place.

In the case of Mahler's 2nd Symphony, a pause of 5 minutes after the first movement. Similarly there is a call for a long puase between parts 1 and 2 of the 3rd Symphony. More recently, Messiaen called for a pause of 1 minute between each movement of Et Expecto . . . .

But did either composer indicate that these pauses were intended to be space for applause?

[kernelbogey]

[Previous post by Jean]
As for symphony concerts in this country, in this city Vasily Petrenko has made it very clear that he does not favour applause between movements, and while audiences have greatly increased in size during his tenure and include many young people never seen before, it's very rare to hear applause in the wrong place.

How does he do this?

There has been little or no reference in this thread, or in the 'applause' thread, to the influence of the conductor on audience responses. With a quiet ending to a movement, it is possible (in my limited recent experience of attendance) for the conductor to hold hands up to 'manage' a silence: more difficult to achieve this after a vigorous ff ending.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...Mahler 2...

But did either composer indicate that these pauses were intended to be space for applause?

Rattle's Vienna Philharmonic Dream of Gerontius in Symphony Hall had a 5 minute break at the end of Part 1. No applause whatsoever, until the end of the work.

[Bryn]

More asserions without any evidence!

'Festivals' of course can cover many different kinds of event, but my experience of attending symphony concerts abroad is that you get the embarrassed inter-movement ripple much as you do here -very rarely, and none of it done with any conviction.

The last concert I took part in abroad was a performance of the Victoria Requiem in Spain last month. Before the concert I was a bit worried that the Spanish might have adopted the practice that's crept in here, of applauding every movement of a Mass. But I needn't have worried - they sat on their hands with admirable restraint.

As for symphony concerts in this country, in this city Vasily Petrenko has made it very clear that he does not favour applause between movements, and while audiences have greatly increased in size during his tenure and include many young people never seen before, it's very rare to hear applause in the wrong place.

But did either composer indicate that these pauses were intended to be space for applause?

All you have to do for evidence is use your ears when listening to broadcasts of concerts throughout the year.

If a specific musician makes her or his opposition to approbation, other than at the end of a work, clear, it is hardly surprising that few if any go against such wishes. I have previously referred to occasions on which performers have specifically requested the withholding of applause until the completion of a series of short pieces, whether conceived as a single work or not. Rattle's sequence of Second Viennese school works is a case in point. I am sure you are quite aware that there are also musicians who actively encourage audiences to applaud when they feel it appropriate between movements.

I have yet to come across a score, other than Momente, which indicates a place for applause, whether between movements or at the end.

[jean]

How does he do this?

A slightly raised hand, a gently reproving glance, and (of course) no acknowledgment of the unwanted applause.

[Bryn]

Three prominent conductors currently based the other side of The Pond, and not usually associated with HIPP. The direct link to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette site does not seem to be working, so I have linked to the relevant PressReader pages.

[jean]

All you have to do for evidence is use your ears when listening to broadcasts of concerts throughout the year.

I do.

If a specific musician makes her or his opposition to approbation, other than at the end of a work, clear, it is hardly surprising that few if any go against such wishes. I have previously referred to occasions on which performers have specifically requested the withholding of applause until the completion of a series of short pieces, whether conceived as a single work or not. Rattle's sequence of Second Viennese school works is a case in point...

But what we really need to know is how much people so diccouraged find their enjoymnent of the concert spoiled.

I am sure you are quite aware that there are also musicians who actively encourage audiences to applaud when they feel it appropriate between movements.

I know. Usually it seems in the interests of resurrecting a forgotten tradition.

I have yet to come across a score, other than Momente, which indicates a place for applause, whether between movements or at the end.

So why mention such pauses at all in this context?

[Bryn]

. . . But what we really need to know is how much people so diccouraged[sic] find their enjoymnent[sic] of the concert spoiled.

You would need to address such a question to those concerned. I am unable to read their minds.

. . . Usually it seems in the interests of resurrecting a forgotten tradition.

How can one know, one way or the other.

So why mention such pauses at all in this context?

To make the case that your raising the issue of a lack of such indication by composers was irrelevant. Composers do not, in general (with the one exception I mentioned) call for applause at any point in their scores, whether between movements or at the end.

Hurrah for Manfred Honeck, Marin Alsop and Gianandrea Noseda.