Proms 2018

[Bryn]

I remember attending a performance of Esa-Pekka Salonen's 'Wing On Wing' at the Barbican 10 years or so ago and there was an audience member with a form of severe autism in the gallery. Inevitably, loud moaning noises filtered across the auditorium. The conductor even turn round with a face like thunder (can't remember who the conductor was) and glared up at the gallery and squinted his eyes trying to identify the fiend. I must say that it did not bother me at all and did not detract from my enjoyment one jot. Not so for many others in the audience who were clucking, tutting, turning around etc (a much bigger distraction).

The person and their career were asked to leave. Disgraceful. I did not know this at the time, I only found this out afterwards. Otherwise I would have physically prevented the security people from effecting that disgraceful act or gone down trying.

In my opinion, there is something fundamentally wrong with the mindset of the 'old guard' at classical concerts.

Since you are out of Blighty at the moment, you will not have had the opotunity to watch Touretteshero: Me, My Mouth and I. If it is still available on the iPlayer when you get back, I strongly recommend it. Just a pity that they did not include Jess Thom's perfromance of Not I in full.

[Richard Barrett]

Apropos: I was once asked by a singer of my acquaintance to assist technically on a recital of more or less theatrical pieces, some with electronic accompaniment (including Gavin Bryars's The White Lodge, I don't remember what else). I suggested that some of the longer pauses between pieces (for stage and costume changes) might be less onerous with the addition of some discreet electronic music, and I was working on such a piece at that time so I used some of the materials I'd put together. A severely disabled girl in the front row giggled throughout these interludes. In terms of engendering spontaneous and unforced enjoyment this was among the most successful music I've ever made.

In answer to the question earlier about expressing disapproval after a performance: I don't think I've ever done that to a performer. You really never know what's behind a performer having a bad day, and generally they will know only too well when they're having one in front of an audience. Expressing vocal displeasure with a composition, on the other hand, is something I've been guilty of on many occasions! - although these days I tend rather to stop applauding when the composer comes on stage, or, when possible, to leave the auditorium once I'm sure things aren't going to improve.

[Bryn]

Apropos: I was once asked by a singer of my acquaintance to assist technically on a recital of more or less theatrical pieces, some with electronic accompaniment (including Gavin Bryars's The White Lodge, I don't remember what else). I suggested that some of the longer pauses between pieces (for stage and costume changes) might be less onerous with the addition of some discreet electronic music, and I was working on such a piece at that time so I used some of the materials I'd put together. A severely disabled girl in the front row giggled throughout these interludes. In terms of engendering spontaneous and unforced enjoyment this was among the most successful music I've ever made.

In answer to the question earlier about expressing disapproval after a performance: I don't think I've ever done that to a performer. You really never know what's behind a performer having a bad day, and generally they will know only too well when they're having one in front of an audience. Expressing vocal displeasure with a composition, on the other hand, is something I've been guilty of on many occasions! - although these days I tend rather to stop applauding when the composer comes on stage, or, when possible, to leave the auditorium once I'm sure things aren't going to improve.

After close-up at the City University Perfromance Space I had to rush off to catch my bus back home, honest!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Afterthought: I find the most irritating thing at classical gigs, opera and ballet isn't clapping, mobile phones, coughing etc but middle class ponces who don't bathe enough.

Indeed - but we can't really do without the performers, though.

The discussion seems (as usual) to have settled into two mutually suspicious and irreconcilable positions (ah! The unifying power of Music!) - the "fusty, dusty ponces" vs the "inconsiderate, ignorant, self-entitled". Does anyone see any way of resolving such equally passionately-felt but opposing and hostile standpoints? I can't; and (unless people are really enjoying themselves in this way) would suggest that there's no point in continuing the Thread, and that we give it a rest (until next year)?

[LMcD]

[QUOTE=ferneyhoughgeliebte;689353]Indeed - but we can't really do without the performers, though.

The discussion seems (as usual) to have settled into two mutually suspicious and irreconcilable positions (ah! The unifying power of Music!) - the "fusty, dusty ponces" vs the "inconsiderate, ignorant, self-entitled". Does anyone see any way of resolving such equally passionately-felt but opposing and hostile standpoints? I can't; and (unless people are really enjoying themselves in this way) would suggest that there's no point in continuing the Thread, and that we give it a rest (until next year)?

[LMcD]

Two more promotional gems (courtesy of the 'Radio Times' which I shall shortly cease having delivered):
Beethoven's Overture Coriolan is 'a punch in the face' according to Karina Canellakis.
And with Havana meets Kingston we can 'expect a pulsating mash-up of Caribbean rhythms' according to (p)reviewer David Butcher.

[vinteuil]

The discussion seems (as usual) to have settled into two mutually suspicious and irreconcilable positions (ah! The unifying power of Music!) - the "fusty, dusty ponces" vs the "inconsiderate, ignorant, self-entitled". Does anyone see any way of resolving such equally passionately-felt but opposing and hostile standpoints? I can't ...

... o, I find it very easy to reconcile and resolve this - I'm a fusty, dusty, ponce who am also inconsiderate, ignorant, and self-entitled.


Problem solved!


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[french frank]

I have perused a few earlier threads on the subject. It turns out the term used more often is "convention". I doubt I need to mention by whom.

Why no quotes and references? I think you should give the details, just to clear up any doubts as to subject and context.

[Richard Barrett]

After close-up at the City University Perfromance Space I had to rush off to catch my bus back home, honest!

I'll try to up the tempo a bit next time.

[french frank]

The discussion seems (as usual) to have settled into two mutually suspicious and irreconcilable positions

If only both sides could start by agreeing with that

[Richard Barrett]

The discussion seems (as usual) to have settled into two mutually suspicious and irreconcilable positions (ah! The unifying power of Music!) - the "fusty, dusty ponces" vs the "inconsiderate, ignorant, self-entitled". Does anyone see any way of resolving such equally passionately-felt but opposing and hostile standpoints?

Well yes - live and let live. One of the best things about music is that nobody gets hurt. (With very few exceptions, I suppose I should point out before the pedants gather.)

[Bryn]

Why no quotes and references? I think you should give the details, just to clear up any doubts as to subject and context.

A search of the Forum for "convention" and "applause" together should do the trick. That's how I found what I did. There are pretty certainly a good few more indicating that the meat of the anti-clapping argument was the contention that applauding between movements was against the established norm (fashion/convention/tradition . . . ), but the same proponents of such argument will be found by anyone interested in searching.

[Barbirollians]

Who came up with the idea of giving concerts silly titles . I was hoping War and peace was indeed a performance of the opera !

It is reminiscent of when James Inverne ruined Gramophone magazine and gave each review a silly subtitle as well as telling us what it said. Both practices fortunately ended by Martin Cullingford.

[french frank]

A search of the Forum for "convention" and "applause" together should do the trick. That's how I found what I did. There are pretty certainly a good few more indicating that the meat of the anti-clapping argument was the contention that applauding between movements was against the established norm (fashion/convention/tradition . . . ), but the same proponents of such argument will be found by anyone interested in searching.

I think that is, superficially, confusing the use of 'tradition' and 'convention' (and one could reasonably argue that both applauding and not applauding have been 'traditions' in their time - indeed you did so yourself on this thread: what else could one have called them?) with the reason for such 'traditions' (obviously the 'tradition' of not applauding didn't begin "because it was a tradition").

I can only offer a rough analogy, an ill-favoured thing but mine own: a Shakespeare play which has well-known speeches or 'set-pieces'. A telling pause at the end of the speech is not an invitation to applaud however well-delivered the speech; rather it offers a moment of reflection over what has just passed and suspense over what will come next. I see that as analogous to the function of the silence between movements.

Does anyone see any way of resolving such equally passionately-felt but opposing and hostile standpoints? I can't; and (unless people are really enjoying themselves in this way) would suggest that there's no point in continuing the Thread, and that we give it a rest (until next year)?

I concur and withdraw

[vinteuil]

... One of the best things about music is that nobody gets hurt.

... poor old Lully!

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