Proms 2018

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wasn't having a "pop" at anyone
BUT simply trying to speak from a position of experience (which does align with what Chi Chi wrote).
No one is "attacking" the audience at all. Just pointing out a few relevant points.

Weeeelll. OK, Chi-Chi explicitly spoke out against the sort of behaviour that dovers suggested might be "politically correct" and approved of - BUT she (Chi-Chi) also makes comments that (at least as far as the article as it was edited and presented in The Guardian) seem to contradict each other. She says that [a]s a musician, it is my job to help all concertgoers, be they seasoned or first-timers, to feel as comfortable and welcome as possible, but then uses vocabulary - "snooty", " 'educated' ", "fusty, dusty" - that suggests that the "overwhelming" majority of the Proms audience who "oppose" inter-movement clapping are not welcome at her own gigs. (And she also suggests that her own "family and close friends" stopped coming to concerts not because they felt discouraged by applauding at the end of Movements, but "at the end of a passage they loved.") She refers to the "fusty dusty" audience members as having "shhh"ed and "tutted" at the inter-movement clappers - I have never encountered this: "grimacing", yes - but never have I heard "vocal" disapproval.

The piece hovers uncertainly between her disapproval of a huge part of her paying audience, and a puff for her own achievements with Chineke! - and her own reliance on hearing positive audience reaction in order to perform well. As presented in this article, her vital points about getting more people going to "Classical" concerts (the "matter" of the article) are not helped by her attempts to stifle and dictate the "natural human responses" of the majority (as she describes it) of the audiences who pay to hear her.

[doversoul1]

You didn't read what she wrote


and SHOCK NEWS
not everyone feels that they are welcome or allowed to go to concerts

Having worked at the RAH and Wigmore Hall et al for many years I'm more than aware of the real barriers that many people have in simply walking through the door and, whether the entitled ones on a social media forum think so or not, the idea that one might clap in the "wrong" place IS a real thing.

She seems to be too ignorant to understand that the clapping which she welcomes, is unnecessary noise to some/many people. Who does she think she is to tell the world which noise is unnecessary and which isn’t?

If she cares so much about getting young people or those who think classical music isn’t for them, to come to classical music concert, why does she not tell them that many things in life are worth making the effort even if they don’t appear to be welcoming at first glance? Tell them to be brave and just ignore the tails-and-frock-coat. Encouraging young people is not the same thing as making everything easy and ready for them. Yet here she is, enforcing the same old idea that classical music is fusty, dusty tails-and-frock-coat etc. Of course it is because people like Chi-chi Nwanoku keep telling the world that it is.

YOU might think it's "politically correct" but why not check your own privilege first?

I have been to many concerts where I was the only non-European and one of the few who were not terribly smartly dressed. It never occurred to me to even give a thought about it.

I think I might ask her

I wouldn’t bother unless she wrote the article just for publicity and not what she really thinks about the matter.

[french frank]

You couldn't make it up. The 'tradition' argument has been the very meat of the argument put forward against inter-movement applause on this forum, over the years.

References? It's not an argument that has appeared on this thread, and I'd be surprised if any ardent 'non clappers' quoted that as their reason. Indeed, other explanations have been given here if anyone was listening.

Laugh emoticons and clichés like. "You couldn't make it up", cut no ice in a reasoned debate. But say it often enough, Bryn, I'm sure your supporters will lap it up as the truth. But you did say 'over the years': perhaps there was someone who said that back in 2010, or was 2011?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Personally, I don't give a fig for "tradition". Living in the past, whether this be HIPPsters clutching at straws or listeners wishing for a return to the 1970s, achieves nothing. Considerate behaviour, however, is timeless, and causing noise pollution during a concert, for one's own satisfaction, is not considerate. It was inconsiderate during Mozart's time and it is now.

[french frank]

Another point is that the understanding that much more could/should be done to attract new audiences to classical music and concert-going is not the sole preserve of those who advocate letting them clap and feel welcome. We all understand the need.

But it seems reasonable to point out that the best way to enhance concert-going for such new audiences is not by ruining it for others. And pace C-cN, education is a useful tool. Where would she be now if she hadn't had that benefit?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Your mention of Wigmore Hall reminded me of a somewhat related issue concerning disruption during performances. A few months ago I attended a recital by Igor Levit. A fellow audience member a few seats behind me repeatedly snorted, snored and made the occasional expostulation during the first half of the recital. During the interval a few of his neighbours remonstrated with him and also complained to the staff about his behaviour. This led to his being talked to by one of the staff. However, when a senoir staff memeber was summoned, he explained that this was a difficult area for them to deal with. While it was appreciated that the disruption interferred with the enjoymnent of the concert for others, there was a human rights issue in play. If the 'offending' audience member had a medical condition which gave rise to his behaviour, their hands were tied. This problem was futher dealt with during the recent broadcast of Touretteshero: Me, My Mouth and I a few days ago. I wonder how those who object to applause between movements would react to such disruption, and what rules they might think appropriate regarding the attendance of Tourettes subjects at a concert?

Tricky.

I regularly attend free lunchtime concerts at the Leeds College of Music, where one of the "regulars" is a young woman with severe disabilities who attends with her carer. Her audible involuntary moans and grunts have become accepted by everyone else - and I think that the performers are told in advance what might happen - and her very clear enjoyment of the concerts is a sort-of reminder of the wonderful impact Music can have. I'd prefer complete silence, but I'd be very sad if she stopped attending.

How I'd feel if I'd paid for an expensive ticket and there was this sort of noise ... well, I think I might just offend my own sad, sorry liberal sensitivities.

[Bryn]

Personally, I don't give a fig for "tradition". Living in the past, whether this be HIPPsters clutching at straws or listeners wishing for a return to the 1970s, achieves nothing. Considerate behaviour, however, is timeless, and causing noise pollution during a concert, for one's own satisfaction, is not considerate. It was inconsiderate during Mozart's time and it is now.

This one appears to have thrown its rider:



Have some consideration for those who find it appropriate to applaud after a non-attacca movement.

[underthecountertenor]

Tricky.

I regularly attend free lunchtime concerts at the Leeds College of Music, where one of the "regulars" is a young woman with severe disabilities who attends with her carer. Her audible involuntary moans and grunts have become accepted by everyone else - and I think that the performers are told in advance what might happen - and her very clear enjoyment of the concerts is a sort-of reminder of the wonderful impact Music can have. I'd prefer complete silence, but I'd be very sad if she stopped attending.

How I'd feel if I'd paid for an expensive ticket and there was this sort of noise ... well, I think I might just offend my own sad, sorry liberal sensitivities.

A friend recently told me of a performance of Messiah in which he was a soloist, and which was attended by someone with a disability which occasionally manifested itself audibly. When, after a pregnant silence, the orchestra struck up with the da capo section of 'He Was Despised', this person exclaimed 'oooh noooooo!' Which, at that point in the proceedings, is a sentiment that I have often felt and struggled to keep to myself.

[MrGongGong]

I have been to many concerts where I was the only non-European and one of the few who were not terribly smartly dressed. It never occurred to me to even give a thought about it.

And I have been to many where i'm the only White person.
BUT I wouldn't extrapolate that into thinking that my own confidence is shared by everyone. My experience of working with many different people tells me otherwise.

[Bryn]

References? It's not an argument that has appeared on this thread, and I'd be surprised if any ardent 'non clappers' quoted that as their reason. Indeed, other explanations have been given here if anyone was listening.

Laugh emoticons and clichés like. "You couldn't make it up", cut no ice in a reasoned debate. But say it often enough, Bryn, I'm sure your supporters will lap it up as the truth. But you did say 'over the years': perhaps there was someone who said that back in 2010, or was 2011?

In this immediate thread, it was you who introduced the issue. I do not have the time or inclination to search back through all the previous threads on the subject but the 'tradition of only applauding at the end of a multi-movement work' has repeatedly been advanced here, as has the counter-argument re. historical traditions.

[jean]

References? It's not an argument that has appeared on this thread...

True! I was amazed to read that Bryn thought it ever had been!

...clichés like "You couldn't make it up"...

Bryn himself is the one who's making things up, though!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In this immediate thread, it was you who introduced the issue.

Well, not really - it was in C-CN's article:

Yet the attitude that concertgoers must be educated to behave in a traditional manner is getting in the way. In fact, it’s actually ignorant to suggest pin-drop silence between movements is “traditional”: revered composers such as Mozart, Brahms and Tchaikovsky dined out on the amount of cheering and clapping they could elicit between movements.

... she does not cite anyone who has said that not clapping between movements is behaving "in a traditional manner", she merely brings in the idea in order to deflate it with mention of a previous "traditional behaviour" (and to attribute ignorance those who prefer not to clap).

[french frank]

In this immediate thread, it was you who introduced the issue. I do not have the time or inclination to search back through all the previous threads on the subject but the 'tradition of only applauding at the end of a multi-movement work' has repeatedly been advanced here, as has the counter-argument re. historical traditions.

When one is accused of something, one finds time to look for the evidence rebutting it. I agree I have been unusually vocal on this subject but in my 31(?) contributions I see nothing that supports your claim that I 'introduced the issue' - if by that you mean that I or anyone thinks silence between movements should be observed because it's traditional. In #73 and #91 I mentioned the historical fact of a change in custom (that whereas it was expected at one time that there would be applause, but at a certain point the custom was introduced to be silent). But I never expected or suggested that people who prefer silence were simply following the custom; indeed I outlined the reverse in #127.

I might suggest that perhaps there were reasons why the change took place, but that is another issue from claiming that people continue to observe it because 'it's the tradition'.

I have made a complete list of the numbers of my contributions to save you time, should you wish to check.

Well, not really - it was in C-CN's article:

And I just cut and pasted what Mr GongGong had posted!

[Bryn]

When one is accused of something, one finds time to look for the evidence rebutting it. I agree I have been unusually vocal on this subject but in my 31(?) contributions I see nothing that supports your claim that I 'introduced the issue' - if by that you mean that I or anyone thinks silence between movements should be observed because it's traditional. In #73 and #91 I mentioned the historical fact of a change in custom (that whereas it was expected at one time that there would be applause, but at a certain point the custom was introduced to be silent). But I never expected or suggested that people who prefer silence were simply following the custom; indeed I outlined the reverse in #127.

I might suggest that perhaps there were reasons why the change took place, but that is another issue from claiming that people continue to observe it because 'it's the tradition'.

I have made a complete list of the numbers of my contributions to save you time, should you wish to check.

And I just cut and pasted what Mr GongGong had posted!

My earlier comment notwithstanding, I have perused a few earlier threads on the subject. It turns out the term used more often is "convention". I doubt I need to mention by whom. In one such thread there was a short debate over whether the term "tradition" or "convention" was the more apposite in this context.

[Beef Oven!]

Tricky.

I regularly attend free lunchtime concerts at the Leeds College of Music, where one of the "regulars" is a young woman with severe disabilities who attends with her carer. Her audible involuntary moans and grunts have become accepted by everyone else - and I think that the performers are told in advance what might happen - and her very clear enjoyment of the concerts is a sort-of reminder of the wonderful impact Music can have. I'd prefer complete silence, but I'd be very sad if she stopped attending.

How I'd feel if I'd paid for an expensive ticket and there was this sort of noise ... well, I think I might just offend my own sad, sorry liberal sensitivities.

I remember attending a performance of Esa-Pekka Salonen's 'Wing On Wing' at the Barbican 10 years or so ago and there was an audience member with a form of severe autism in the gallery. Inevitably, loud moaning noises filtered across the auditorium. The conductor even turn round with a face like thunder (can't remember who the conductor was) and glared up at the gallery and squinted his eyes trying to identify the fiend. I must say that it did not bother me at all and did not detract from my enjoyment one jot. Not so for many others in the audience who were clucking, tutting, turning around etc (a much bigger distraction).

The person and their career were asked to leave. Disgraceful. I did not know this at the time, I only found this out afterwards. Otherwise I would have physically prevented the security people from effecting that disgraceful act or gone down trying.

In my opinion, there is something fundamentally wrong with the mindset of the 'old guard' at classical concerts.

Afterthought: I find the most irritating thing at classical gigs, opera and ballet isn't clapping, mobile phones, coughing etc but middle class ponces who don't bathe enough.