Proms 2018

[Bryn]

Ridiculous, Bryn Applauders aren't at all tolerant of the wishes of non applauders!

The only aspect of the non-applauders that the applauders may have some objection to is their, the non-applauders, intolerance. They do not seek to force the non-applauders into applauding. Many 'remoaners' wish that those who voted with the 'Bexiteers' had not done so. However, this does not constitute intolerance since they do not aim to deny the 'Brciteeers' their democratic right to vote. In the case of at least some of the contributions to this thread, the aim is clearly to deny the appluders their right to clap.

[Bryn]

I applaud your self-criticism.

[french frank]

One of the reasons that people ( like me) are exercised about this issue is specifically the negative comments made about audiences

Yes, this isn't just about applauding between movements or not, is it? It's the whole industry of scapegoating the audiences and insulting them. The bullying of a minority.

[french frank]

They do not seek to force the non-applauders into applauding.

Bryn, there is a logical flaw in your pseudo-argument. Can you spot what it is?

[Bryn]

Bryn, there is a logical flaw in your pseudo-argument. Can you spot what it is?

No, unless you are seeking to argue that the non-applauders are not trying to stop the applauders doing their thing.

[MrGongGong]

One of the reasons that people ( like me) are exercised about this issue is specifically the negative comments made about audiences ( paying audiences, us ) by Chi-Chi Nwanoku, and Suzi Klein, not least because people like us help to keep their jobs and organisations going.

aaah yes, this one again
How dare a mere musician express a view when they are merely the servant of those who pay their wages ?

[ahinton]

The only aspect of the non-applauders that the applauders may have some objection to is their, the non-applauders, intolerance. They do not seek to force the non-applauders into applauding. Many 'remoaners' wish that those who voted with the 'Bexiteers' had not done so. However, this does not constitute intolerance since they do not aim to deny the 'Brciteeers' their democratic right to vote. In the case of at least some of the contributions to this thread, the aim is clearly to deny the appluders their right to clap.

Oh, mon Dieu! We're going to get debates about clapping between referenda next!

[Bryn]

Oh, mon Dieu! We're going to get debates about clapping between referenda next!

I know this is not designated a pedants' thread, but please, "referendums", not "referenda".

[gurnemanz]

Oh, mon Dieu! We're going to get debates about clapping between referenda next!

Metropolitan elite non-clappers v populist clappers?

[ahinton]

I know this is not designated a pedants' thread, but please, "referendums", not "referenda".

So you're in favour of a second one, then?!

Isn't it perhaps a shame that Reich's Clapping Music wasn't divided into movements; had it been so, that might have given what I seem to recall our JLW calls "interstitial clappers" something to think about before banging their hands together between them...

[ahinton]

Metropolitan elite non-clappers v populist clappers?

Oh, nothing so simple as that! Perish the thought!

[ahinton]

As someone once said to his finacée, "we were Promming and BBCSO was playing Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony; the moment I clapped eyes on you was between the second and third movement but at least no one heard me do this"...

[Bryn]

That’s because ‘tolerating’ the absence of something you’d quite like to be there is a good deal easier than tolerating the the presence of something you find positively unpleasant and disruptive..

Which precisely what I find the attitude of those criticising the paying audience members who take it upon themselves to applause between the movements of a multi-movement work.

[french frank]

No, unless you are seeking to argue that the non-applauders are not trying to stop the applauders doing their thing.

No, I am saying that the non-applauders are not wanting 'the right not to applaud' (in which case the 'tolerant' applauders are letting them have their way). They prefer there to be silence between the movements of a single work - which your 'tolerant' applauders are denying them.

Dear God, it can't be that difficult to understand that the two preferences are mutually exclusive and there is no 'right' and 'wrong': merely two sets of people with wishes that cannot both be accommodated. Therefore the applauders get their way because they applaud. And those who prefer silence must be 'patient and forbearing', as if the applauders are noisy toddlers who mustn't be upset …

[doversoul1]

aaah yes, this one again
How dare a mere musician express a view when they are merely the servant of those who pay their wages ?

I don’t think that is the point (even if you don’t mean it seriously). I agree with teamsaint; it is very disappointing that, of all people, someone who is very much aware of and care about extra-musical issues in classical music seems to have jumped on the bandwagon and blaming the ‘traditional’ classical music concert goers for the declining (if it is. Do we really know?) of the audience of classical music. It’s far too simplistic and Chi-Chi Nwanoku must know it is.