Proms 2018

[teamsaint]

As I understand it, half full halls and reduced revenue would impact on Radio 3 and its round-the-year schedule, since R3 pays the shortfall between revenue and expenses.

(I spent a few moments trying to recall who EG Honegger was -<doh>)

He is to Swiss music what JR Hartley was to fly fishing .....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Off the top of my head (like most of my hair):

Much more Music from before 1600 - Machaut; Dunstable; a celebration of the Eton Choirbook; an evening themed around Hildegard; the Notre Dame "School"; a celebration of "Anon" - all performed by the ensembles and enthusiasts for the repertoires that have emerged in this Century (rather than the same old old men who emerged around 1980).

Much more New Music, from composers never heard at the Proms before - inviting ensembles such as Elision, distractfold, musikfabrik, neue vocalsoloisten, ensemble recherche, Apartment House, the Diotima 4tet, the JACK Quartet, and soloists such as Ian Pace, Jonathan Powell, Nic Hodges - all bringing the new works that they have commissioned. There could be UK premieres of Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern, works from the Differenz/Wiederholung series; Proms premieres of Ferneyhough's Carcere d'Invenzione cycle - Brabbins & the BBCSO could re-engage with La Terre est un Homme and PLotzlichkeit (thus helping to make up for this year's "overlooking" of Ferneyhough's 75th birthday); any of Barrett's multi-piece works; Dillon's Nine Rivers; a Canadian focus; a celebration of Experimentalism old and new (including a belated tribute to Michael Parsons after his 80th birthday this year was also completely neglected, coupled with works by Christian Wolff, and the young composers emerging who are enthusiastically engaged with continuing this "genre"); Saunders' Chroma (just imagine that echoing from every nook and cranny of the Albert Hall!); a celebration of the Wandelweisser composers and their associates;

Contributions from Opera North, and Scottish Opera; a group of three mid-20th Century British Symphonies (I'd ensure Alwyn #3, and Rubbra #6 - and let the Baxians have a go: I'd need a night off); the earlier Bruckner Symphonies; the earlier Dvorak Symphonies; Moses and Aron and Moses in Egypt; something to celebrate David Willcocks' centenary, and to commemorate the tenth anniversaries of the deaths of Henri Posseur and H C Robbins Landon - and I so wish that the 60th anniversary of Martinu's death could be commemorated with a Symphony cycle conducted by Belohlavek, but there are other conductors who could do the honours; Die Frau ohne Schatten (70 years after the death of the composer) and/or any of the Strauss operas that never get performed onstage; Tchaikovsky's Orchestral Suites; Brahms' Serenades; Szymanowski; Scelsi ...

... just as a start - and there has to be room for the Warhorses as well, of course. But just restore the idea of the Proms as a Festival - something special - rather than just a series of concerts night-after-night, offering the same repertoire that is already part of the standard South Bank offerings, and even of the "Saturday Town Hall Concert Series" the rest of the year.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... well, I would like to have more music pre-1750 and post-1950.

Let's be bold - let us have one year with no music composed between 1750 and 1950....

That - including the emoticon - too!

[Lat-Literal]

As I implied earlier, with RVW, Holst, Copland, Barber, Debussy, Ravel and Faure all accentuated, I am pleased with it. I suppose it is worth pointing out to those who want the less than predictable - and I am among those too, albeit with different composers - that the starting point for such a campaign would be to get one piece by them played annually on Radio 3. All else is over ambition. Does anyone know which piece by Mason Bates is being featured in the Ten Pieces Prom? Is it the obvious? If so, whatever its merits, it will be a "televisual wow".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

All else is over ambition.

Well, rather that than under-achievement. But I don't accept this summary, Lats - there is nothing in the current situation that cannot be rectified by programmers with imagination and daring, just as Glock rescued the Proms in the '60s by expanding the repertoire (historically and geographically) and engaging the enthusiasm of a wider audience. That sort of dedicated over-ambition, tailored to present-day listening and communication opportunities is what is needed to prevent the Proms from becoming irrelevant. All else is defeatism.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Incidentally, (and with apologies if this has been mentioned before) does anybody know which work by Felix Dvorak is being performed in the "Ten Pieces Proms"?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/composers/220f8cc0-e490-4c02-8ac3-3d578bc3d8c1

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dvorak

[Lat-Literal]

Well, rather that than under-achievement. But I don't accept this summary, Lats - there is nothing in the current situation that cannot be rectified by programmers with imagination and daring, just as Glock rescued the Proms in the '60s by expanding the repertoire (historically and geographically) and engaging the enthusiasm of a wider audience. That sort of dedicated over-ambition, tailored to present-day listening and communication opportunities is what is needed to prevent the Proms from becoming irrelevant. All else is defeatism.

I was partially being ironic, ferney, but it also has to be remembered that Glock - in whom I think there were good and bad points just as was the case with Reith - was also the BBC Controller of Music and in charge of the Third Programme/BBC R3 so the Proms content reflected to some extent the radicalism on the radio.

Not that I wish to defend what is done today but there is at root a question about what to include if it is not the staples. You like Machaut, Dunstable, Dillon, Ferneyhough, Barrett, Wolff, Saunders, Scelsi, Alwyn, Rubbra and Szymanowski - interestingly the latter two are frequently cited as having been on Glock's alleged blacklist - and I would want Bingen, Griffes, Beach, Duparc, Still, Freitas Branco, Guarnieri, Pade, the Panufniks and Tabokova. Each of us can probably add a hundred names to our lists.

We are going to end up in our committee agreeing on (a) your "a Canadian focus" with me wanting Archer, Coulthard, Dett and Herbie Hancock and friends performing "River : The Joni Letters" and you wanting I dunno - Louie, Kulesha, Raymond Murray Schafer and István Anhalt and (b) a lot of Beethoven and Debussy as usual.

Having said as much, I did very much like your post:

Off the top of my head (like most of my hair):

Much more Music from before 1600 - Machaut; Dunstable; a celebration of the Eton Choirbook; an evening themed around Hildegard; the Notre Dame "School"; a celebration of "Anon" - all performed by the ensembles and enthusiasts for the repertoires that have emerged in this Century (rather than the same old old men who emerged around 1980).

Much more New Music, from composers never heard at the Proms before - inviting ensembles such as Elision, distractfold, musikfabrik, neue vocalsoloisten, ensemble recherche, Apartment House, the Diotima 4tet, the JACK Quartet, and soloists such as Ian Pace, Jonathan Powell, Nic Hodges - all bringing the new works that they have commissioned. There could be UK premieres of Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern, works from the Differenz/Wiederholung series; Proms premieres of Ferneyhough's Carcere d'Invenzione cycle - Brabbins & the BBCSO could re-engage with La Terre est un Homme and PLotzlichkeit (thus helping to make up for this year's "overlooking" of Ferneyhough's 75th birthday); any of Barrett's multi-piece works; Dillon's Nine Rivers; a Canadian focus; a celebration of Experimentalism old and new (including a belated tribute to Michael Parsons after his 80th birthday this year was also completely neglected, coupled with works by Christian Wolff, and the young composers emerging who are enthusiastically engaged with continuing this "genre"); Saunders' Chroma (just imagine that echoing from every nook and cranny of the Albert Hall!); a celebration of the Wandelweisser composers and their associates;

Contributions from Opera North, and Scottish Opera; a group of three mid-20th Century British Symphonies (I'd ensure Alwyn #3, and Rubbra #6 - and let the Baxians have a go: I'd need a night off); the earlier Bruckner Symphonies; the earlier Dvorak Symphonies; Moses and Aron and Moses in Egypt; something to celebrate David Willcocks' centenary, and to commemorate the tenth anniversaries of the deaths of Henri Posseur and H C Robbins Landon - and I so wish that the 60th anniversary of Martinu's death could be commemorated with a Symphony cycle conducted by Belohlavek, but there are other conductors who could do the honours; Die Frau ohne Schatten (70 years after the death of the composer) and/or any of the Strauss operas that never get performed onstage; Tchaikovsky's Orchestral Suites; Brahms' Serenades; Szymanowski; Scelsi ...

... just as a start - and there has to be room for the Warhorses as well, of course. But just restore the idea of the Proms as a Festival - something special - rather than just a series of concerts night-after-night, offering the same repertoire that is already part of the standard South Bank offerings, and even of the "Saturday Town Hall Concert Series" the rest of the year.

It has a thoughtful and (more) knowledgeable (than me) programmer's air!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks, Lats - just a couple of points:

1) It's not just about my "likes", but about what a publicly-funded broadcaster ought to be doing in an eight week long "Festival" of Music. I included works and repertoire that I either don't particularly like (and even actively dislike) as well as works & repertoire that I don't know at all - and there are probably even Musics I don't know exist. I don't see why the Beeb should be involved, if the vast majority of the performances are of the sort of repertoire that Classic FM regularly broadcasts.

2) Glock had no "blacklist" (as I think you know). In addition to his work at the BBC and the Bath Festival, Glock was consulted in the '60s by the Cheltenham Festival when their ticket sales drooped and nobody on the board of the Festival had been able to come up with remedies. There are works from composers who moaned that they were on this mythological "blacklist" that owe their existence to Glock.

There cannot be another Glock - the nature of media and Arts management is very different today from how it was half-a-century ago. Challenged by pureimagination to come up with a "season" I wrote down some immediate impressions of what might be included. But there are huge areas of artists and repertoire that I am ignorant of - and if I were "in charge", I'd work in collaboration with enthusiasts of those repertoires to create a much, much more wider-ranging Summer Celebration of Musical Creativity.

[Lat-Literal]

Thanks, Lats - just a couple of points:

1) It's not just about my "likes", but about what a publicly-funded broadcaster ought to be doing in an eight week long "Festival" of Music. I included works and repertoire that I either don't particularly like (and even actively dislike) as well as works & repertoire that I don't know at all - and there are probably even Musics I don't know exist. I don't see why the Beeb should be involved, if the vast majority of the performances are of the sort of repertoire that Classic FM regularly broadcasts.

2) Glock had no "blacklist" (as I think you know). In addition to his work at the BBC and the Bath Festival, Glock was consulted in the '60s by the Cheltenham Festival when their ticket sales drooped and nobody on the board of the Festival had been able to come up with remedies. There are works from composers who moaned that they were on this mythological "blacklist" that owe their existence to Glock.

There cannot be another Glock - the nature of media and Arts management is very different today from how it was half-a-century ago. Challenged by pureimagination to come up with a "season" I wrote down some immediate impressions of what might be included. But there are huge areas of artists and repertoire that I am ignorant of - and if I were "in charge", I'd work in collaboration with enthusiasts of those repertoires to create a much, much more wider-ranging Summer Celebration of Musical Creativity.

Mostly I concur and I fully support your approach.

But Ruth Gipps and George Lloyd weren't played.

Both were very troubled by it and it had such a lasting impact on Gipps that she was hardly recorded until this decade long after her death.

[french frank]

Incidentally, (and with apologies if this has been mentioned before) does anybody know which work by Felix Dvorak is being performed in the "Ten Pieces Proms"?

Surprised I'd never heard of him, but he's apparently composed nine symphonies!!! The piece is the 2nd mvt of the 9th, which is called "From th ......."

Incidentally, there are 11 pieces on that list - Stravinsky isn't included in Ten Pieces III.

[vinteuil]

... Ruth Gipps and George Lloyd weren't played.

... perhaps because they weren't / aren't much good / very interesting.




.

[Beef Oven!]

... perhaps because they weren't / aren't much good / very interesting.




.

Lloyd perhaps, but not Gipps. Her symphonies are so gritty and melodic - open yer ears!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And Glock wasn't the only Proms organiser to neglect Gipps and the other one - Gipps had only one work featured at the Proms before Glock's arrival: in the days of Henry Wood: it would appear that any "blacklist" in her case originated in the years that Herbage and Wilkinson were the chief programmers. (And even Henry Wood - who would programme anything that he thought exciting and needed to be heard, regardless of whether he "liked" it or not - didn't think Lloyd's Music worth taking up Proms time: nothing by that composer features until 1980.)


Just looking at how in tune with cultural tides Glock was in his time at the Proms can be seen in the first performances of works by Bruckner and Mahler that received their first Proms performances during his time. How "unrealistic" and "idealised" were the programmes he put together - and yet how they captured exactly what was needed at the time - matching the spirit of adventure and excitement of the time. (And that's not even mentioning the Second Viennese Schools and post-War European developments for which he is associated.)

[pureimagination]

"Challenged by pureimagination to come up with a "season" I wrote down some immediate impressions of what might be included. But there are huge areas of artists and repertoire that I am ignorant of - and if I were "in charge", I'd work in collaboration with enthusiasts of those repertoires to create a much, much more wider-ranging Summer Celebration of Musical Creativity."
ferneyhoughgeliebte, thank you for taking up the challenge. I hope someone with influence is reading this forum (does any one with influence read this forum?). I totally agree with your sentiments. You've provided me with some new and less familiar composers/ensembles/performers/companies to seek out.

I think for me, personally, that at this seasons Proms there are a lot of pieces that I look forward to hearing/seeing and that I'm less critical than others but once again I must commend ferneyhoughgeliebte for giving us plenty of food for thought.

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps at least one year's Proms could in part be devoted to the "forgotten" generation of modern French composers whose main output bridges the gap between the Les Six and the Boulez generations. In other words, contemporaries of Messiaen and the slightly more frequently than previously broadcast Jolivet. They would represent a large sector of broadly modern tastes, for example those who largely appreciate the music of composers such as Roussel, Prokofiev, Martin, Martinu, Piston, Malipiero, Alwyn - to name an international selection of accessible mainstream modern composers of the interwar period. I'm not at all sure why the BBC elects to neglect them; indeed I'm not too sure if any of these names have ever appeared at the Proms. Anyway, here's my list:

Marcelle de Manziarly (1899 (b.Ukraine) - 1989)
Henri Sauguet (1901 - 1980)
Jacques Chailley (1910 - 1999)
Marcel Delannoy (1898 - 1962)
Claude Delvincourt (1888 - 1954)
Henri Barraud (1901 - 1997)
Pierre Capdeville (1906 - 1969)
Elsa Barraine (1910 - 1999)
Jean Cartan (1906 - 1932)
Marcel Landowski (1915 - 1999)
Pierre-Octave Ferroud (1903 - 1936)
Jean Rivier (1896 - 1987)

Landowski is fairly typical - a symphonic composer akin to Honegger; Barraud was another symphonist, highly regarded by Messiaen as on a par with Koechlin.

Three later composers, associates of Messiaen's circle of disciples in the 1940s who turned away from initially adopting advanced serialism under the influence of Soviet Socialist Realist doctrines, and are thus the french equivalents of our Alan Bush, sort-of, have completely fallen by the British wayside, though the third of them may be known for his conductorship of a rather fine recording of Turangalila from 1957:

Jean-Luis Martinet (1912 - 2010)
Serge Nigg (1924 - 2008)
Maurice Le Roux (1923 - 1992)

These three went against the "ideological grain" at the time in re-embracing melodicism and diatonic tonality, as had Eisler in the early 1930s and after returning to the GDR in 1948, and thus present undoubted interest, unlike they would today, when light-touch considerations of such importance signpost a now well-established Capitalist Realist pan-global ahistorical amnesia.