Proms 2018

[ahinton]

I think it does. A bit.

You may think that. I cannot possibly comment or even clap between anyone else's possible comments thereon...

[Bryn]

This is Leon Dudley:

[MickyD]

How about if we change things a little and discuss if anyone has ever booed, hissed or blown a raspberry at a work they didn't appreciate?

[MrGongGong]

As far as this article is concerned, it occur to me that she actually had no idea what she was talking about but simply following likes of Suzy Klein’s Old thing baaaad, New thing gooood argument. It sounds open minded, politically correct and it gets published. I assume she doesn’t mind in the least if people clap and whoop in the middle of a movement or walk out during her performance if they feel like it. You can do what you like at classical music concerts. Just come and enjoy yourself.

You didn't read what she wrote

Of course I’m against unnecessary noise – chat, eating, mobile phone conversations, etc – when it occurs during a movement, because it’s distracting and shows a lack of consideration to those who are there to hear the music, and to those playing it. But at a time when the classical music industry is desperately trying to develop its audience and bring the concert-going experience out of the fusty, dusty tails-and-frock-coat era and into the 21st century, I believe we are not helping matters by trying to stifle and dictate natural human responses.

and SHOCK NEWS
not everyone feels that they are welcome or allowed to go to concerts

Having worked at the RAH and Wigmore Hall et al for many years I'm more than aware of the real barriers that many people have in simply walking through the door and, whether the entitled ones on a social media forum think so or not, the idea that one might clap in the "wrong" place IS a real thing.

YOU might think it's "politically correct" but why not check your own privilege first?

I think I might ask her

[teamsaint]

You didn't read what she wrote


and SHOCK NEWS
not everyone feels that they are welcome or allowed to go to concerts

Having worked at the RAH and Wigmore Hall et al for many years I'm more than aware of the real barriers that many people have in simply walking through the door and, whether the entitled ones on a social media forum think so or not, the idea that one might clap in the "wrong" place IS a real thing.

YOU might think it's "politically correct" but why not check your own privilege first?

I think I might ask her

You are quick to accuse other people of not reading things ( fake news) but in fact don't read what other people say on here, or at least spectacularly misinterpret.

But keep having a pop at " entitled " people if it makes you happy. It really isn't the people attending concerts who are creating barriers to attendance.
The Proms is well attended by a pretty diverse range of people. It could be more diverse . But attacking the audiences (the ones currently supporting the whole business) who are in my actual experience very welcoming and accepting, is not going to make it better.

In my actual, real experience, I'd say that Proms audiences, certainly in the arena are more diverse than those n Metal gigs, Folk music gigs, gigs by bands from the 70's and 80's, and contemporary rock gigs.

[MrGongGong]

You are quick to accuse other people of not reading things ( fake news) but in fact don't read what other people say on here, or at least spectacularly misinterpret.

But keep having a pop at " entitled " people if it makes you happy. It really isn't the people attending concerts who are creating barriers to attendance.
The Proms is well attended by a pretty diverse range of people. It could be more diverse . But attacking the audiences (the ones currently supporting the whole business) who are in my actual experience very welcoming and accepting, is not going to make it better.

In my actual, real experience, I'd say that Proms audiences, certainly in the arena are more diverse than those n Metal gigs, Folk music gigs, gigs by bands from the 70's and 80's, and contemporary rock gigs.

HUmmmm

I wasn't having a "pop" at anyone
BUT simply trying to speak from a position of experience (which does align with what Chi Chi wrote).
No one is "attacking" the audience at all. Just pointing out a few relevant points.

[vinteuil]

.

... I like the observation by Simon Callow in today's Times that Wagner was always delighted by any manifestation of enthusiasm from the audience : at the first public performance of Parsifal he tried to lead a round of applause for the Flower Maidens but was roundly shushed by members of the public...




.

[LMcD]

Out of a desire to be even more helpful, may I propose that there be 5 categories of inter-movement applause, the better accurately to convey to the artistes the audience's appreciation:
Category I: Half-hearted/brief/embarrassed/self-conscious/sporadic
Category 2: More confident/vigorous version of Category 1
Category 3: Category 2 with interspersed 'bravos' and the odd cheer
Category 4: Category 3 with more organized, larger-scale cheers
Category 5: All the above, culminating in a standing ovation.

[Richard Tarleton]

.

... I like the observation by Simon Callow in today's Times that Wagner was always delighted by any manifestation of enthusiasm from the audience : at the first public performance of Parsifal he tried to lead a round of applause for the Flower Maidens but was roundly shushed by members of the public...




.

Shushed chiefly, one imagines, by Cosima, since he was having an affair with one of them, Carrie Pringle (allegedly).

[Bryn]

. . . Having worked at the RAH and Wigmore Hall et al for many years I'm more than aware of the real barriers that many people have in simply walking through the door and, whether the entitled ones on a social media forum think so or not, the idea that one might clap in the "wrong" place IS a real thing. . . .

Your mention of Wigmore Hall reminded me of a somewhat related issue concerning disruption during performances. A few months ago I attended a recital by Igor Levit. A fellow audience member a few seats behind me repeatedly snorted, snored and made the occasional expostulation during the first half of the recital. During the interval a few of his neighbours remonstrated with him and also complained to the staff about his behaviour. This led to his being talked to by one of the staff. However, when a senoir staff memeber was summoned, he explained that this was a difficult area for them to deal with. While it was appreciated that the disruption interferred with the enjoymnent of the concert for others, there was a human rights issue in play. If the 'offending' audience member had a medical condition which gave rise to his behaviour, their hands were tied. This problem was futher dealt with during the recent broadcast of Touretteshero: Me, My Mouth and I a few days ago. I wonder how those who object to applause between movements would react to such disruption, and what rules they might think appropriate regarding the attendance of Tourettes subjects at a concert?

[french frank]

I've mentioned this before, but a piece of research was done on a school party being taken to see a performnce of Othello. They might as well have been at a classical music concert, more hung up on the audience (all very old) and feeling unwelcome (getting dirty looks). People care about these things because they're not really interested in what's going on - or not interested enough. And Chi-chi Nwanoku's response was that educating people 'gets in the way'.

She even said: "In fact, it’s actually ignorant to suggest pin-drop silence between movements is “traditional”." Yes, but those who want silence aren't the ones throwing the word 'traditionalist' around, and the notion that people prefer silence between movements because they think it's 'traditional' is breathtakingly obtuse. Being a very good double-bass player doesn't make her a fount of wisdom on all things musical. And it's unkind to put her in the firing line.

[Bryn]

. . . those who want silence aren't the ones throwing the word 'traditionalist' around, and the notion that people prefer silence between movements because they think it's 'traditional' is breathtakingly obtuse. . . .

You couldn't make it up. The 'tradition' argument has been the very meat of the argument put forward against inter-movement applause on this forum, over the years.

[MrGongGong]

Your mention of Wigmore Hall reminded me of a somewhat related issue concerning disruption during performances. A few months ago I attended a recital by Igor Levit. A fellow audience member a few seats behind me repeatedly snorted, snored and made the occasional expostulation during the first half of the recital. During the interval a few of his neighbours remonstrated with him and also complained to the staff about his behaviour. This led to his being talked to by one of the staff. However, when a senoir staff memeber was summoned, he explained that this was a difficult area for them to deal with. While it was appreciated that the disruption interferred with the enjoymnent of the concert for others, there was a human rights issue in play. If the 'offending' audience member had a medical condition which gave rise to his behaviour, their hands were tied. This problem was futher dealt with during the recent broadcast of Touretteshero: Me, My Mouth and I a few days ago. I wonder how those who object to applause between movements would react to such disruption, and what rules they might think appropriate regarding the attendance of Tourettes subjects at a concert?

I think, (or rather know from bitter experience ) that there are many people who would be more than happy to exclude all sorts of people on the grounds of disability, clothing, appearance or appearing not to "fit in".

And (sadly) many of these people are, at the moment, considerably emboldened to try and enforce their perception of how things should be on everyone.

and (AGAIN) CONTEXT is key, I think.
I wouldn't take a 3-year-old to an all-night concert of drone music

[Bryn]

I think, (or rather know from bitter experience: sadface:) that there are many people who would be more than happy to exclude all sorts of people on the grounds of disability, clothing, appearance or appearing not to "fit in".

And (sadly) many of these people are, at the moment, considerably emboldened to try and enforce their perception of how things should be on everyone.

and (AGAIN) CONTEXT is key, I think.
I wouldn't take a 3-year-old to an all-night concert of drone music

I am reminded, yet again, of something oft cited by the pianist John Tilbury regarding a letter (not from him) to The Guardian:

"Having sat through most of Act 1 of a ballet at the Royal Opera House while two ladies next to me talked incessantly I risked a polite remonstrance. One of them replied, 'But it's only music.' Is there any reply to this?"

[MrGongGong]

I am reminded, yet again, of something oft cited by the pianist John Tilbury regarding a letter (not from him) to The Guardian:

"Having sat through most of Act 1 of a ballet at the Royal Opera House while two ladies next to me talked incessantly I risked a polite remonstrance. One of them replied, 'But it's only music.' Is there any reply to this?"

I can suggest a reading list