Prom 65 - 1.09.17: Stax Records: 50 Years of Soul

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Comments on this thread about classical music vs, erm, non-classical prompt me to suggest that the Proms could perhaps feature classical music from other cultures
This would address some of the contentious issues in the Chineke! thread too.
Has this happened in the past? I'm sure you'll tell me...

Just over a week ago, Globa:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091wdfm

... and, famously ... wonderfully ... the all-night ragas in 1981 and 1983. None of this would "address" the "issues" that some find "contentious" with Chineke!, though - as they perform only repertoire from the Western Classical Traditions. (I wonder if there were ever grumbles about "We never get all-night Grieg, do we?" at the time.)

Ever since those 1980s events, I've always hoped for non-Western "classical" Music to be featured at the Proms (they must have "done" gamelan some time, mustn't they .... ?!) - there must be so many riches I've never encountered.

[Conchis]

In the end, I had mixed feelings about this one. All the old Stax stars were very good - some surprisingly - although Booker T and Cropper were bound to have been reliable and as ageless as it is possible to be. Next, the Jools Holland stalwarts, British, and almost a part of his own band so frequently are they associated with him - Beverley Knight, 44, Ruby Turner, 59 and Tom Jones, 77. Now Jones - who was advised today on doctor's orders to postpone an American tour so he did well in the circumstances - has never been my cup of tea. I can, though, see why he features in anything requiring a soul voice because he could claim in his own way to have one. It doesn't work convincingly for me but it isn't wholly out of place.

Turner fits better and is to be respected for the way in which she has persistently pursued a non-trendy course not so far removed from last night's content. A strong voice. Have never been sure whether it is a really great voice but beggars can't be choosers. As for Knight, I think I would make similar comments although she is arguably more versatile and can even be contemporary. Not so keen on her modern material myself but I fully appreciate the need for it to maintain relevance plus she is the consummate professional. I do have time for her.

Now the ages of them. These too are relevant because I think one has to question what is taking place here. Is the combination of all these people just an idea for the night or were we supposed to be thinking about taking the music on in a live setting once the Stax stars themselves have gone? If so, that will not be Jones and nor in the longer term will it be Turner. So on that basis what one got was a glimpse of the future in which Stax live would be Knight and - we can probably dismiss the two very young people who didn't immediately suggest longevity - James Morrison who at 33 was good enough in the sense of pastiche. I doubt that as a prospect is exciting enough. Who else? James Hunter? More a Sam Cooke, I think.

And, actually, not exciting enough is possibly how I felt about the Prom. It was reasonably lively but lacked a bit of zest. It was good but it wasn't great. It was also very much in the Holland style which is not in my opinion a plus point. The biggest plus with him is that nobody else would be pulling such a thing together. Would I have preferred to have heard only the Stax people? At this stage, I think the answer is yes. The Knights and the Morrisons can do another in fifteen years. Booker T would then have drawn on his more contemporary output. That would have meant some modern hip hoppy stuff in places and elsewhere perhaps the ultra smooth. Mainly - although not exclusively - that additional stuff would not have been to my own personal taste but it would have drawn a wider, younger, audience. And I can more than cope with, say, this one from 2011 - in fact, I reckon it is a bit of a modern classic:

Booker T Jones - Representing Memphis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMvyQkwUkWo

Jones is another of those people whom I'd place in the 'Great Voice - Horrible Singer' category.

The problem is with his interpretative choices - as Scott Walker (considered TJ's rival in the 60s, much to Walker's disgust) once put it: 'he slams it in your face'. No subtlety, all ersatz. That said, he performed well in this Prom - but then, (for once) he had the material.

[cloughie]

In the end, I had mixed feelings about this one. All the old Stax stars were very good - some surprisingly - although Booker T and Cropper were bound to have been reliable and as ageless as it is possible to be. Next, the Jools Holland stalwarts, British, and almost a part of his own band so frequently are they associated with him - Beverley Knight, 44, Ruby Turner, 59 and Tom Jones, 77. Now Jones - who was advised today on doctor's orders to postpone an American tour so he did well in the circumstances - has never been my cup of tea. I can, though, see why he features in anything requiring a soul voice because he could claim in his own way to have one. It doesn't work convincingly for me but it isn't wholly out of place.

Turner fits better and is to be respected for the way in which she has persistently pursued a non-trendy course not so far removed from last night's content. A strong voice. Have never been sure whether it is a really great voice but beggars can't be choosers. As for Knight, I think I would make similar comments although she is arguably more versatile and can even be contemporary. Not so keen on her modern material myself but I fully appreciate the need for it to maintain relevance plus she is the consummate professional. I do have time for her.

Now the ages of them. These too are relevant because I think one has to question what is taking place here. Is the combination of all these people just an idea for the night or were we supposed to be thinking about taking the music on in a live setting once the Stax stars themselves have gone? If so, that will not be Jones and nor in the longer term will it be Turner. So on that basis what one got was a glimpse of the future in which Stax live would be Knight and - we can probably dismiss the two very young people who didn't immediately suggest longevity - James Morrison who at 33 was good enough in the sense of pastiche. I doubt that as a prospect is exciting enough. Who else? James Hunter? More a Sam Cooke, I think.

And, actually, not exciting enough is possibly how I felt about the Prom. It was reasonably lively but lacked a bit of zest. It was good but it wasn't great. It was also very much in the Holland style which is not in my opinion a plus point. The biggest plus with him is that nobody else would be pulling such a thing together. Would I have preferred to have heard only the Stax people? At this stage, I think the answer is yes. The Knights and the Morrisons can do another in fifteen years. Booker T would then have drawn on his more contemporary output. That would have meant some modern hip hoppy stuff in places and elsewhere perhaps the ultra smooth. Mainly - although not exclusively - that additional stuff would not have been to my own personal taste but it would have drawn a wider, younger, audience. And I can more than cope with, say, this one from 2011 - in fact, I reckon it is a bit of a modern classic:

Booker T Jones - Representing Memphis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMvyQkwUkWo

lat, Interesting observations - Many people and I suggest you may be one of them who have a bias against Jools Holland - OK not the best pianist in the World and maybe his omnipresence annoys some but he does have a really good band there, and as I have already said on this thread, created a pretty good Stax sound. As to the singers - I think that Beverly Knight and Tom Jones fully justified their presence there, Ruby Turner, probably but I was underwhelmed and disppointed by the power of her voice, though the three backing singers were very good - names anyone. James Morrison at 33 singing like that may suffer vocal chord damage too young! Whilst I like different approaches to songs I was not impressed by the Walking the Dog but maybe my aversion to 'rap' and my love of the original Rufus Thomas accounts mainly for that. The Stax originals there were great to see William Bell and Eddie Floyd very good, Sam I think lost it a little but no real complaints. Booker T and Steve Cropper whether on backing or leading were bang up to the mark.
Another British singer who I think could have done an excellent job is Elkie Brooks.

[Stanfordian]

No idea who 'JD' is but 'Proms Extra' have been excellent this year, done live as well. KD is in her element here and brings out the best in her guests which results in some interesting exchanges. DON is a national treasure and should be preserved at all costs.

Hiya jonfan,

Yes, a typo, my mistake. I do mean KD not JD. But I cannot agree with you about KD being in her element. I nearly coughed up my breakfast when I read your view! But we all have different tastes!

[jonfan]

Hiya jonfan,

Yes, a typo, my mistake. I do mean KD not JD. But I cannot agree with you about KD being in her element. I nearly coughed up my breakfast when I read your view! But we all have different tastes!

It would be boring on these boards if we all agreed wouldn't it?
Nuggets you missed last night Stanfordian while watching Channel 5 were:- Stephen Hough doesn't play any Bach, Evelyn Glennie is to attempt to set some of the '48' for marimba, Jess Gilliam still hasn't recovered her stolen sax and also I wish I was as articulate now as Jess, she being only 18 years old. Oh and chord of the week was initially thought unplayable on the violin in Stravinsky's Violin Concerto.

[Lat-Literal]

Jones is another of those people whom I'd place in the 'Great Voice - Horrible Singer' category.

The problem is with his interpretative choices - as Scott Walker (considered TJ's rival in the 60s, much to Walker's disgust) once put it: 'he slams it in your face'. No subtlety, all ersatz. That said, he performed well in this Prom - but then, (for once) he had the material.

Thank you - and I tend to agree.

lat, Interesting observations - Many people and I suggest you may be one of them who have a bias against Jools Holland - OK not the best pianist in the World and maybe his omnipresence annoys some but he does have a really good band there, and as I have already said on this thread, created a pretty good Stax sound. As to the singers - I think that Beverly Knight and Tom Jones fully justified their presence there, Ruby Turner, probably but I was underwhelmed and disppointed by the power of her voice, though the three backing singers were very good - names anyone. James Morrison at 33 singing like that may suffer vocal chord damage too young! Whilst I like different approaches to songs I was not impressed by the Walking the Dog but maybe my aversion to 'rap' and my love of the original Rufus Thomas accounts mainly for that. The Stax originals there were great to see William Bell and Eddie Floyd very good, Sam I think lost it a little but no real complaints. Booker T and Steve Cropper whether on backing or leading were bang up to the mark.
Another British singer who I think could have done an excellent job is Elkie Brooks.

I mainly agree with these comments too. Not exactly anti Jools Holland - I used to like him a lot and remember feeling quite shocked when he was criticized on this very forum -
but I don't know. "Later" seemed to go from the up-to-date version of Whistle Test into something that was just too formatted and I never really headed for the Jools and his band stints at various festivals I attended. Whereas I did go to Al Green, Solomon Burke and Isaac Hayes, among others, all as it happens at Glastonbury. Even then, I felt I wanted "the real thing".

Comments on this thread about classical music vs, erm, non-classical prompt me to suggest that the Proms could perhaps feature classical music from other cultures

This would address some of the contentious issues in the Chineke! thread too.

Has this happened in the past? I'm sure you'll tell me...

You will recall this - although it doesn't quite fit the remit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...om-review.html

[teamsaint]

Thank you - and I tend to agree.


I mainly agree with these comments too. Not exactly anti Jools Holland - I used to like him a lot and remember feeling quite shocked when he was criticized on this very forum -
but I don't know. "Later" seemed to go from the up-to-date version of Whistle Test into something that was just too formatted and I never really headed for the Jools and his band stints at various festivals I attended. Whereas I did go to Al Green, Solomon Burke and Isaac Hayes, among others, all as it happens at Glastonbury. Even then, I felt I wanted "the real thing".


You will recall this - although it doesn't quite fit the remit - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...om-review.html

I was at that World Routes Prom.

For somebody like me, not well versed in World Music, it was a great chance to see a number of well thought of and clearly accomplished musicians, in a way that seemed to me to fit well with the Radio 3 remit and output.
Great atmosphere,which brought together a group of late evening world music fans with interested stragglers from the earlier prom which had feature Prokofiev 5, IIRC.
Much more how things should be done than, well, some other non classical Proms, IMO.

The World Routes show was dropped later in the same year, I think.

[cloughie]

Jones is another of those people whom I'd place in the 'Great Voice - Horrible Singer' category.

The problem is with his interpretative choices - as Scott Walker (considered TJ's rival in the 60s, much to Walker's disgust) once put it: 'he slams it in your face'. No subtlety, all ersatz. That said, he performed well in this Prom - but then, (for once) he had the material.

Tom Jones first four albums and some of his sixties singles were his best recorded output when he was hungry for success and worked hard for it. Decca had some great session musicians back then. My test of a singer is whether they can deliver a 'standard' - TJ passed this test easily.

[teamsaint]

Tom Jones first four albums and some of his sixties singles were his best recorded output when he was hungry for success and worked hard for it. Decca had some great session musicians back then. My test of a singer is whether they can deliver a 'standard' - TJ passed this test easily.

Don't know his early stuff, other than the famous hits, but his album with Jools Holland is a fine record IMO.Ok, he lacks a bit of subtelty, but he sings it how he hears it, and every so often, a blast of TJ is just the thing.the first " reloaded" duets album is also great fun, and a charity shop staple to boot.

[Lat-Literal]

I was at that World Routes Prom.

For somebody like me, not well versed in World Music, it was a great chance to see a number of well thought of and clearly accomplished musicians, in a way that seemed to me to fit well with the Radio 3 remit and output.
Great atmosphere,which brought together a group of late evening world music fans with interested stragglers from the earlier prom which had feature Prokofiev 5, IIRC.
Much more how things should be done than, well, some other non classical Proms, IMO.

The World Routes show was dropped later in the same year, I think.

[Globaltruth]

Well, we've already had Indian classical music, but I agree that there's much more we should hear.

I'd completely missed that! So thanks...

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?17297-Prom-55-25-08-17-Classical-Music-of-India-and-Pakistan

Yes, more of that please.
A Proms version of this for example

https://www.internationalcuratorsforum.org/projects/diaspora-platform/