Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely they couldn't legally in the UK or EU restrict membership of the orchestra to self identified BME people? That would be discrimination.

This sums up the situation better than I've managed so far.

This might be useful:

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/what-positive-action-is-permitted-under-discrimination-legislation/103008/

[MrGongGong]

"More opportunities for others doesn't mean fewer opportunities for you, it's not cake"

[french frank]

This might be useful:

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/faq/what-po...lation/103008/

"Positive action is lawful if it is taken to:

[ …] enable or encourage people who share a protected characteristic to participate in an activity in which their participation is disproportionately low."

That seems to deal with that particular 'problem'.

[jonfan]

"More opportunities for others doesn't mean fewer opportunities for you, it's not cake"

I'm discriminated against joining the NYO because I'm too old, but I don't begrudge them their success. Nor do I begrudge the likes of Chineke! who are giving talented people a helping hand who need it to make a success in the music profession. In the '60s and '70's of the last century I taught in a primary school in Dewsbury that was in quite a poor area financially. But in the school the children thrived under the local music service with free lessons and loans of expensive instruments to learn on; French horns, tubas, bassoons, even a half size double bass. I don't need to stress the social, academic value of such facilities as they have been expounded many times before. We had a large school orchestra as well. All were equal here, children from rich and poor families had the same opportunities and from varying ethnicity. At a stroke all this fell apart when under government policy lessons and instruments had to be paid for and instruments too; only the well off could afford to carry on. And this is where we are today with caring music teachers, the poor sods, fighting for resources to bring music to everyone and not just the well off. The whole has been a gigantic catastrophe which has deprived a generation of young people the life enhancing experience of music making in its fullness. A society that is also quite happy to see the wholesale closure of many public libraries is not in a healthy state. Thank you BBC and Chineke! for bringing this concert to the Proms. More power to your collective bows.

[Dave2002]

It seems to me that that has been your position from the start and you haven't shifted your view, any more than Alpie has. Goodness knows, there have been enough contrary arguments if people had been disposed to change their minds. Equal opportunities means that there are times when some people will be 'discriminated' against. How else can you make unequal things equal?

It's getting late, so I'm not going to argue right now, but I do want to try to clarify my views which I believe you have misinterpreted and misrepresented. My view is that I think this (the Chineke exercise) is very likely a very good thing, but on the other hand I could not see how it could fit within a UK/EU framework without being discriminatory. I was also not aware of any exceptions in our jurisdictions when such exceptions could be allowed.

We live in a society in which most forms of discrimination are being done away with - but as you note - this may introduce new forms of discrimination. There may still be problems though - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...oms--clubhouse

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Positive action is lawful if it is taken to:

[ …] enable or encourage people who share a protected characteristic to participate in an activity in which their participation is disproportionately low."

That seems to deal with that particular 'problem'.

- precisely.

[Maclintick]

I'm discriminated against joining the NYO because I'm too old, but I don't begrudge them their success. Nor do I begrudge the likes of Chineke! who are giving talented people a helping hand who need it to make a success in the music profession. In the '60s and '70's of the last century I taught in a primary school in Dewsbury that was in quite a poor area financially. But in the school the children thrived under the local music service with free lessons and loans of expensive instruments to learn on; French horns, tubas, bassoons, even a half size double bass. I don't need to stress the social, academic value of such facilities as they have been expounded many times before. We had a large school orchestra as well. All were equal here, children from rich and poor families had the same opportunities and from varying ethnicity. At a stroke all this fell apart when under government policy lessons and instruments had to be paid for and instruments too; only the well off could afford to carry on. And this is where we are today with caring music teachers, the poor sods, fighting for resources to bring music to everyone and not just the well off. The whole has been a gigantic catastrophe which has deprived a generation of young people the life enhancing experience of music making in its fullness. A society that is also quite happy to see the wholesale closure of many public libraries is not in a healthy state. Thank you BBC and Chineke! for bringing this concert to the Proms. More power to your collective bows.

These points need reinforcing to counter a collective amnesia of how much we've lost in the marketisation of social provision since the 80s. The irony of importing initiatives from Venezuela when our own "Sistema", the Music Service, was systematically undermined & impoverished, starting, of course, under the philistine Thatcher government but scarcely ameliorated under New Labour, is something which should worry anyone who benefitted from free music lessons & loan of instruments, or who cares about the future health of classical music in this country. I should add that attitudes prevalent among opinion-formers & people who should have known better that classical music was somehow "elitist" were almost as destructive as government apathy.

[MrGongGong]

These points need reinforcing to counter a collective amnesia of how much we've lost in the marketisation of social provision since the 80s. The irony of importing initiatives from Venezuela when our own "Sistema", the Music Service, was systematically undermined & impoverished, starting, of course, under the philistine Thatcher government but scarcely ameliorated under New Labour, is something which should worry anyone who benefitted from free music lessons & loan of instruments, or who cares about the future health of classical music in this country. I should add that attitudes prevalent among opinion-formers & people who should have known better that classical music was somehow "elitist" were almost as destructive as government apathy.

Without going into the arguments about the whole "Sistema" thing
I do think that we are in a real mess with music education in the UK

Apart from the obvious funding problems and lack of support the emphasis on genre based approaches has had a detrimental and divisive effect on all types of musicking in schools.

But I really don't think people not involved care enough to do anything about it.
There are people inside music education who have been thinking and trying to make a noise about this but sadly they are largely ignored

https://teachtalkmusic.wordpress.com/2016/09/03/what-is-ks3-music-education-for/

for example

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's getting late, so I'm not going to argue right now, but I do want to try to clarify my views which I believe you have misinterpreted and misrepresented. My view is that I think this (the Chineke exercise) is very likely a very good thing, but on the other hand I could not see how it could fit within a UK/EU framework without being discriminatory. I was also not aware of any exceptions in our jurisdictions when such exceptions could be allowed.

We live in a society in which most forms of discrimination are being done away with - but as you note - this may introduce new forms of discrimination. There may still be problems though - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...oms--clubhouse

I echo most of this. Clearly there are great benefits emerging from this project, but the fact remains that a primary stipulation in the selection procedure is the colour of one's skin, something I find completely unacceptable, however many times friends on this forum react to my views.

[MrGongGong]

I echo most of this. Clearly there are great benefits emerging from this project, but the fact remains that a primary stipulation in the selection procedure is the colour of one's skin, something I find completely unacceptable, however many times friends on this forum react to my views.

Just parking this here

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not sure how to reply with quote . But in response to the original post . I am always surprised how few singers from an Afro- Caribbean background have followed in the footsteps of the great Sir Willard White and have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it is not just lack of access to the years of training needed that have deterred them . It may not be overt racism but just a feeling that it's a largely white world that is not for them . The last performance of Otello at ROH only had a very few black singers in the chorus - and ,promisingly , in the children's choir - and one of the principals . It strikes me that every one is missing out - a large pool of undiscovered talent either remains that or goes in pop, rock , rap, hip-hop etc . We are not so blessed with great voices that we can afford to exclude any one .
In response to Richard Barrett's point about more competition : the good news is that is we if are serious about expanding the number of BME composers and professional musicians we inevitably expand the small number of people of all backgrounds that show an interest in this art form - because the professionals will always form the tip of a broad - based pyramid . Those that don't "make it " become talented amateur performers , audience members etc,
However vast amounts of research have shown time and time again we can't correct decades of deeply ingrained social problems like poor housing and poor education by tinkering with access to the apex . We would be better off pouring money into high quality nursery and primary education - with hopefully music right in there .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just parking this here

The finest conductor I've met.

https://www.york.ac.uk/music/staff/instrumental/shaun-matthew/

Before you ask, I've met the likes of Bernstein, Willcocks and Andrew Davis.

[MrGongGong]

The finest conductor I've met.

https://www.york.ac.uk/music/staff/instrumental/shaun-matthew/

Before you ask, I've met the likes of Bernstein, Willcocks and Andrew Davis.

Why are you telling me?
So you have met a black conductor, that must mean that everything is fine in the world ?


If you look at the photo I posted (which didn't exactly take long to find) it's easy to see why Chi-Chi started this orchestra

[french frank]

I echo most of this. Clearly there are great benefits emerging from this project, but the fact remains that a primary stipulation in the selection procedure is the colour of one's skin, something I find completely unacceptable, however many times friends on this forum react to my views.

I'm afraid that unless you are prepared to acknowledge that the current situation is also 'unacceptable' - and suggest a realistic way to improve matters - that simply sounds like obduracy. One should never be unwilling to rethink one's personal principles according to the reality of a situation.

Think of this a weighing machine: if you want both sides to be equal, you add weight only to the lighter side. If the issue is race, then it is likely to involve skin colour. If you're making an exception for skin colour (but not gender, age &c), why?

[Richard Barrett]

So you have met a black conductor, that must mean that everything is fine in the world ?

E_A, do you have even one suggestion as to how the current situation (unless you do indeed think it's all fine and dandy) could be addressed?

Heldenleben: yes I accept everything you say. But for example I recently read that a number of contemporary music festivals, including HCMF which is the UK's leading example, have committed themselves within a given timespan to 50% representation by female composers (the present figure is something less than 15% I believe). Without a massive expansion in the programmes of these festivals, which is very unlikely to happen under present and near-future conditions, this will inevitably mean that some music by male composers which otherwise would have been performed, now won't be. And what I'm saying is that the benefits of this to everyone outweigh any inconvenience to one individual or another. The relevance this point has to the present discussion is that, as we see from E_A's posts, it's very easy for people in a privileged position to view any attempt to redress balances as being some kind of deprivation, with this view articulated in terms of an imagined (and delusory) symmetry between advantaged and disadvantaged members of society.