Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[MrGongGong]

fhg

I never had the opportunity to take part in a steel band, nor was I encouraged to do so. Similarly for a gamelan orchestra, nor a band of drummers.
Nor was I offered the chance to play the sitar, either as a soloist nor in a group.

I was offered chances to learn "standard" instruments and to play in orchestras, some of which I took. However, if we look at numbers, it is obvious that relatively few people in the UK have an interest or knowledge of classical music, just as I have relatively little interest or knowledge of the UK pop scene.

I think there are cultural aspects which might impact on the numbers of (young?) people participating in different forms of musical activities in different countries.

I don't think it's possible simply to ascribe the clearly relatively small number of obviously non white musicians in orchestras solely to various forms of racism nor discrimination nor bias.

When I was younger I

Played in a steel band
Played in Balinese and Javanese Gamelan orchestras (obviously)
Played in a Samba band (but i'm much better now thanks)
Studied Sitar for a few years
Played bass in a Reggae band
Played in orchestras
Sung in choirs
Had piano, french horn & theory lessons

The "cultural" aspect of my background means that ALL of these have been open to me

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My own experience was similar (I was deprived of the Sitar and Samba, but did have experience working with a Ghanaian drumming ensemble) - being a percussionist opened more opportunities for me than if I stuck to violin*.

BUT, there isn't a charity to help people like us to gain professional performing opportunities, because there isn't sufficient interest (and because those ensembles I played with had more flexible membership opportunities than have professional symphony orchestras) - unlike BME Musicians seeking employment in orchestras.

Of course, there isn't enough interest in "Classical Music" (and in cultural/creative activities generally) across all areas of society - that's down to inadequate education and cultural funding. This is something that could be redressed if there was sufficient commitment from those who are interested; but there isn't - except in a very few cases where groups of people have got together to do something to address the problem, rather than just moaning about it. Chineke!' (with their Junior Orchestra education project) is one of these cases - something to celebrate and support, I would have thought.


* = there are some on the Forum who have heard my violin playing and who will testify that the move to percussion was of substantial benefit to humanity.

[french frank]

I never had the opportunity to take part in a steel band, nor was I encouraged to do so. Similarly for a gamelan orchestra, nor a band of drummers.
Nor was I offered the chance to play the sitar, either as a soloist nor in a group.

Did you want to? Since none of these have, historically, ever been part of our Western musical culture, that's not surprising. What about the Polynesian nose flute?

However, if we look at numbers, it is obvious that relatively few people in the UK have an interest or knowledge of classical music I think there are cultural aspects which might impact on the numbers of (young?) people participating in different forms of musical activities in different countries.

I suspect that it's the relatively 'privileged' black children (of professional families), just as it is for white children, who come into contact with classical music at an early age. If they have any interest, it should be encouraged - and inspired, shouldn't it? No one is calculating the percentage of BME origin people in the country and saying there ought to be the same percentage in our orchestras.

I think there are cultural aspects which might impact on the numbers of (young?) people participating in different forms of musical activities in different countries.I don't think it's possible simply to ascribe the clearly relatively small number of obviously non white musicians in orchestras solely to various forms of racism nor discrimination nor bias.

Well, yes. But if you don't want 'divisions', you surely encourage integration by offering opportunities. No one's forcing the young people to participate (except, possibly, their own parents).

A friend of mine (not at all interested in classical music) told me of a black child who had expressed an interest in learning the violin. The school thought it more appropriate for him to learn African drumming. Even my friend thought there was something wrong there.

Opportunity, encouragement, inspiration.

As for Chi-chi Nwanoku's experience: it reminds me of Margaret Thatcher saying she'd never encountered sexual discrimination in her career: if women had the ability to get on, they would. No need for 'positive discrimination'. Kudos to Chi-chi for realising that won't be the experience of everyone - just the lucky ones. Some people think they achieve everything they achieve purely through their own merit, no aspect of luck or privilege. That's just personal vanity.

[french frank]

PS - I had not read ferney's refs to violin and drumming when I wrote my last!

[Stunsworth]

I never had the opportunity to take part in a steel band, nor was I encouraged to do so

Opportunities do exist. Here's a snap I took in Paris on the annual summer solstice music day (why don't we have something similar?).

[zola]

I have just returned from the Chetham's Piano Summer School, which provided ample evidence of the hardly unremarked phenomenon of the popularity of the piano in China. At a rough count, there were between 40 to 50 out of the 230 participants who were from China or who were ethnically Chinese citizens of another state. There were a couple of adults of black ethnicity but no children. Finance can not be ignored as a factor here I think. The Summer School is not eye wateringly expensive but there is a not insignificant cost involved in attending and then of course there is the question of piano lessons through the year and access to a good piano. So, wandering back on topic, I think that anything expanding opportunity and participation is to be welcomed.

[french frank]

So, wandering back on topic, I think that anything expanding opportunity and participation is to be welcomed.

Hence El Sistema in Venezuela. (Why can't they stick to joropo [NB thanks Wiki]?)

[Maclintick]

I have just returned from the Chetham's Piano Summer School, which provided ample evidence of the hardly unremarked phenomenon of the popularity of the piano in China. At a rough count, there were between 40 to 50 out of the 230 participants who were from China or who were ethnically Chinese citizens of another state. There were a couple of adults of black ethnicity but no children. Finance can not be ignored as a factor here I think. The Summer School is not eye wateringly expensive but there is a not insignificant cost involved in attending and then of course there is the question of piano lessons through the year and access to a good piano. So, wandering back on topic, I think that anything expanding opportunity and participation is to be welcomed.

Agreed. It's an astonishing statistic that there were maybe 40 million children in China learning the piano because of the Lang Lang phenomenon. No need to worry about the future of classical music -- it's in the Far East....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/11082975/Lang-Lang-interview-Parents-should-not-be-pushy.html

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Agreed. It's an astonishing statistic that there were maybe 40 million children in China learning the piano because of the Lang Lang phenomenon. No need to worry about the future of classical music -- it's in the Far East....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...-be-pushy.html

And our answer to all this was "Wider Opportunities".

[french frank]

Agreed. It's an astonishing statistic that there were maybe 40 million children in China learning the piano because of the Lang Lang phenomenon.

China is in itself a phenomenon. I had read before that for middleclass parents having their children learn the piano was one way of showing that they were middleclass, successful, could afford to pay. And in China, that means an awful lot of children and and awful lot of pianos.

It is the mirror image for most black children.

[Dave2002]

Did you want to? Since none of these have, historically, ever been part of our Western musical culture, that's not surprising. What about the Polynesian nose flute?

Really that's my first point. I was exposed to Western classical music from a very early age - I don't know why. I think many people - even white Brits are not - and they think that music is pop/X factor etc.

It seems likely that many people with different backgrounds will not be exposed to Western classical music, so will not even know or think about it.

Well, yes. But if you don't want 'divisions', you surely encourage integration by offering opportunities. No one's forcing the young people to participate (except, possibly, their own parents)A friend of mine (not at all interested in classical music) told me of a black child who had expressed an interest in learning the violin. The school thought it more appropriate for him to learn African drumming. Even my friend thought there was something wrong there.

... but equally I was not exposed to steel bands nor given any opportunity to play in one throughout my school years. Had I been I might have gone for them - or for African drumming, or for Mongolian throat singing.

Opportunity, encouragement, inspiration.

As for Chi-chi Nwanoku's experience: it reminds me of Margaret Thatcher saying she'd never encountered sexual discrimination in her career: if women had the ability to get on, they would. No need for 'positive discrimination'. Kudos to Chi-chi for realising that won't be the experience of everyone - just the lucky ones. Some people think they achieve everything they achieve purely through their own merit, no aspect of luck or privilege. That's just personal vanity.

I am coming round to the view that there has been a problem here - as noted in some of the early messages in this thread. While on the one hand I do applaud the efforts - I'm not belittling those - I do wonder how organisations can legally introduce exclusivity into their operations. Surely they couldn't legally in the UK or EU restrict membership of the orchestra to self identified BME people? That would be discrimination.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I am coming round to the view that there has been a problem here - as noted in some of the early messages in this thread. While on the one hand I do applaud the efforts - I'm not belittling those - I do wonder how organisations can legally introduce exclusivity into their operations. Surely they couldn't legally in the UK or EU restrict membership of the orchestra to self identified BME people? That would be discrimination.

This sums up the situation better than I've managed so far.

[Richard Barrett]

I do wonder how organisations can legally introduce exclusivity into their operations

Oh for heaven's sake why all this nitpicking? - they can't and they don't. The players in the first instance were hand-picked by Chi-chi Nwanoku, as she has explained: "it was a case of writing and speaking to a lot of people for recommendations that I followed up, by either going to their concerts, listening to recordings, youtube, speaking to old teachers etc, everything! The main age-range is between twenty and forty; some are older and a few still in their teens. The cultural mix is wonderful, ranging from Bangladeshi, Indian, Mauritian, Sri Lankan, Iranian, Caribbean, African. When we met for our first rehearsal I was overwhelmed by the intoxicating mix, so we bought a huge map of the world and drew a line from our roots to London. Out of the 62 musicians we were 31 nationalities, so had come from virtually everywhere!"

This is what Simon Rattle has to say: "Chineke! is not only an exciting idea but a profoundly necessary one. The kind of idea which is so obvious that you wonder why it is not already in place. The kind of idea which could deepen and enrich classical music in the UK for generations. What a thrilling prospect!" Which surely anyone but the most mean-spirited could only agree with.

[Dave2002]

Oh for heaven's sake why all this nitpicking? - they can't and they don't. The players in the first instance were hand-picked by Chi-chi Nwanoku, as she has explained: "it was a case of writing and speaking to a lot of people for recommendations that I followed up, by either going to their concerts, listening to recordings, youtube, speaking to old teachers etc, everything! The main age-range is between twenty and forty; some are older and a few still in their teens. The cultural mix is wonderful, ranging from Bangladeshi, Indian, Mauritian, Sri Lankan, Iranian, Caribbean, African. When we met for our first rehearsal I was overwhelmed by the intoxicating mix, so we bought a huge map of the world and drew a line from our roots to London. Out of the 62 musicians we were 31 nationalities, so had come from virtually everywhere!"

This is what Simon Rattle has to say: "Chineke! is not only an exciting idea but a profoundly necessary one. The kind of idea which is so obvious that you wonder why it is not already in place. The kind of idea which could deepen and enrich classical music in the UK for generations. What a thrilling prospect!" Which surely anyone but the most mean-spirited could only agree with.

Thanks for the explanation - that helps a lot. The enterprise does seem to be very worthwhile.

The mechanisms do seem to be skirting round some issues which could be problematic in the EU/UK where there is not, as far as I know, wide acceptance of positive discrimination initiatives, though in other legislations these are possible.

[french frank]

I am coming round to the view that there has been a problem here

It seems to me that that has been your position from the start and you haven't shifted your view, any more than Alpie has. Goodness knows, there have been enough contrary arguments if people had been disposed to change their minds. Equal opportunities means that there are times when some people will be 'discriminated' against. How else can you make unequal things equal?