Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I thought most US and UK orchestras employed blind audition procedures with applicants playing behind a screen. If so that would suggest their recruitment procedures are amongst the most open and inclusive around . As others have said the real problem is access to education and tuition - and even more fundamentally exposure to an art form that , and I know I am generalising , has largely but not exclusively been the product of and at the service of an elite .

Richard - it strikes me that the fairest way to select pieces for the HCMF would be through anonymous submission as with exam entries. Or is the intention to redress centuries of injustice through the festival ? Laudable but it strikes me that it's simply too late in the whole process to do that.
Finally having been on a few 'fair selection' courses it is not always the case that those discriminated against want positive discrimination . They want to be selected on their merits and crucially have access to the training, mentoring , support structures and networks that others enjoy. Just being good is not enough to get a job these days...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As for the race issue, it should never be allowed to rear its ugly head. So the Daily Mail and the Daily Express should be weeded out for prosecution when they publish hate-inciting headlines.

But it's the very fact that "the Race issue" has been allowed to rear its ugly head, shoulders, torso, legs and feet that Chineke! has had to be created - one of the many problems with letting things sort themselves out in the fullness of time is that it doesn't address the emptiness of stomachs now. What are you saying to un(der)-employed BME Musicians - "Sorry chaps ... and, err, you others ... but come back in your next life; things'll probably be better"? You cannot expect others to accept a lower standard of working and living conditions merely to support your principles.

It's much too late to tickle the problem with initiatives which, however well-intentioned, are likely to perpetuate the situation by making divisions appear acceptable.

This is nonsense. Ignoring those "divisions" over the past decades has been exactly what has led to their being accepted as "the status quo". With innumerable socio-political inequities, changes for the better have best come from positive action from those most adversely affected and afflicted, working and fighting to initiate for their own justice, often supported by sympathisers from more privileged backgrounds. Chineke! is in this great tradition.

[Richard Barrett]

I thought most US and UK orchestras employed blind audition procedures with applicants playing behind a screen.

Most orchestras on the continent do it too. Not the VPO obviously!

Richard - it strikes me that the fairest way to select pieces for the HCMF would be through anonymous submission as with exam entries.

That wouldn't work - any composer whose work is worth supporting would be working in a recognisably individual style (obviously to a far greater extent than someone wishing to play in an orchestra!), so there's no possible equivalent to the audition screen!

Or is the intention to redress centuries of injustice through the festival? Laudable but it strikes me that it's simply too late in the whole process to do that.

The intention is to help to make the future different from the past with regard to this particular issue.

[MrGongGong]

That wouldn't work - any composer whose work is worth supporting would be working in a recognisably individual style (obviously to a far greater extent than someone wishing to play in an orchestra!), so there's no possible equivalent to the audition screen!

There is also the issue of how by treating everything as some kind of "competition" we lose the opportunities of supporting people who might produce some really wonderful work which wouln't get selected in a competitive environment.

Treating everything as a competition has undesirable consequences.

The intention is to help to make the future different from the past with regard to this particular issue.

Which seems to me to be a good idea. (though I will miss seeing Stockhausen in the Merrie England Coffee Shops of Huddersfield)

[Richard Barrett]

Treating everything as a competition has undesirable consequences.

Absolutely right.

[Richard Tarleton]

"Positive action is lawful if it is taken to:

[ …] enable or encourage people who share a protected characteristic to participate in an activity in which their participation is disproportionately low."

Looking at Lloyd Coleman's website which ferney drew our attention to on the Gurrelieder thread, I see

He continues to balance his composing activities with a busy performing schedule as a clarinettist – most frequently with Charles Hazlewood and the British Paraorchestra, the world’s first professional ensemble comprised solely of musicians with disabilities.

As 8th said some way back, this has been a most educational thread.

[MrGongGong]

So what does "Paul" think?
After hall he started much of this then seems to have taken his ball inside

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So what does "Paul" think?
After hall he started much of this then seems to have taken his ball inside

Well, he certainly succeeded in his intention of putting cats amongst pigeons!

I think we've exhausted the "themes" he raised in #2 (with its misconceptions about what the orchestra is for) and it does look as if ideas and attitudes have reached a point where perhaps we can accept that nothing new can be added? Maybe time to spend more time discussing the actual content and quality of the performance itself?

[Richard Barrett]

Maybe time to spend more time discussing the actual content and quality of the performance itself?

Well, I did start on that. Did you have any thoughts about the new piece? I guess it would have been too much to ask for it to have been anything like as ground-breaking as the conception of the orchestra itself...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, I did start on that. Did you have any thoughts about the new piece? I guess it would have been too much to ask for it to have been anything like as ground-breaking as the conception of the orchestra itself...

Well - I'd heard some of Hannah Kendall's work before, so knew what to expect: and she gave what I was expecting; competent, inoffensive, unremarkable, vaguely pleasant ... mnyeh.

I thought the performances were good, and the concert as a whole very pleasant - I said earlier that I thought the R-K was under-powered, but thought that that was the conductor's fault rather than the players' (and some delicious solo flute playing). For this sort of smorgasbord programming it worked well enough - but I'd really like to hear the orchestra in something a bit more meaty; and at a less "slightly embarrassed to be including this" time in the evening.

[Richard Barrett]

I thought the performances were good, and the concert as a whole very pleasant - I said earlier that I thought the R-K was under-powered, but thought that that was the conductor's fault rather than the players' (and some delicious solo flute playing). For this sort of smorgasbord programming it worked well enough - but I'd really like to hear the orchestra in something a bit more meaty; and at a less "slightly embarrassed to be including this" time in the evening.

Agreed on all counts. I hadn't heard any of Hannah Kendall's work before and I was hoping for something less... anonymous. It's the kind of thing that feeds into the idea that contemporary music consists of premieres of unexciting pieces which seem destined to be forgotten soon afterwards. Anyway, nobody else seems to want to talk about the actual music of this concert.

[DracoM]

Delighted Sheku Kanneh-Mason is getting noticed - a fine cellist, real entertainer and a talent to watch in ANY music. He came to our local min-Fest earlier this year.

[Nick Armstrong]

Delighted Sheku Kanneh-Mason is getting noticed - a fine cellist, real entertainer and a talent to watch in ANY music. He came to our local min-Fest earlier this year.

Nottingham lad. Bound to be alright!

[pastoralguy]

Nottingham lad. Bound to be alright!

I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing him develop as an artist.

[pureimagination]

Sheku Kanneh-Mason, in my opinion, is a real talent and I hope he has a long and illustrious career (but the pink and black socks were a bad choice for a Proms debut!). I agree with some that occasionally the Orchestra lacked a little in some sections [the horn section in the Rimsky-Korsakov], but even the big orchestras can have noticeable performance issues/audible glitches. I enjoyed the Prom immensely because of and despite of it being an 'occasion', though an important one for the Proms. Thanks to those in this thread who have made some really positive comments [french frank, MrGongGong, Richard Barrett].
The concert is being broadcast on BBC Four Sat Sept 9th at 21:30