Prom 62 - 30.08.17: Chineke!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm afraid that unless you are prepared to acknowledge that the current situation is also 'unacceptable' - and suggest a realistic way to improve matters - that simply sounds like obduracy. One should never be unwilling to rethink one's personal principles according to the reality of a situation.

Especially when, as in this case, the principles that Alpie has repeatedly made clear he shares, are best represented, best achieved by such positive action. What are the alternatives? Compel existing orchestras to employ a representative number of BME players, (presumably necessitating the sacking of some of their current personnel)? Hoping that things will "sort themselves out in the fullness of time" (and regarding the unemployment of BME classical Musicians currently seeking work as a regrettable but necessary consequence)? Or creating an ensemble of (to quote their "mission statement") players "predominantly from BME backgrounds" - in itself a huge range of communities - and with the additional remit of introducing more children from deprived social backgrounds to the opportunities that the repertoire offers them? Or .... (over to you, Alpie - I can't think of a "fourth way").

And, as Richard quite correctly points out, such positive action has benefits not merely to those it targets for help, but for everybody. (At the extremest least, those of us who enjoyed the Prom - which hasn't been much mentioned, and which, incidentally, was a far, far greater, life-affirming Musical event than the dreary Concertgebouw Bruckner debacle.

[Tony Halstead]

Just parking this here

Please could you post the photo in a 'higher-res' version? it's currently so small and blurry that one can't even see if there are any ladies in it, let alone BME players.

[Richard Tarleton]

Please could you post the photo in a 'higher-res' version? it's currently so small and blurry that one can't even see if there are any ladies in it, let alone BME players.

6 ladies I think Tony! Front centre, front one from the right, front one from the left, second row four from the right (auburn hair with, I think, a cello), two top back left - percussionists?

[Lat-Literal]

Interesting discussion.

I have in my time here posted music from You Tube by these people (one, I think) as well as by the East-West Divan Orchestra (two) and Simon Bolivar/Dudamel (several to many).

The common link between the three is arguably ethnicity depending on where one stands but that should not obscure their differences. El Sistema from which Bolivar emerged is focussed principally on the economically disadvantaged, the Divan in many ways reaches out as a peace initiative and Chineke is about cultural under-representation in the broader context. The latter is not apartheid. It could or would be if white people were excluded and in political terms non-whites were excluding and dominant. But whether this Prom was one of the most important of all time as The Guardian suggests may just be pushing it. It sounds a little like gushing on principle. A couple of questions arise. One, would it be preferable to have an orchestra that is more or less 50/50 in terms of ethnic mix? While politically, that might be more in line with what I prefer in many circumstances, it would not necessarily make those who consider that everything should be based purely on merit as they see it any happier. Two, would it not be better as some have suggested to have an orchestra more along the El Sistema lines that represented the economically disadvantaged? My feeling on this point is that there is no real need for an either/or. Each can surely have a place in this society.

Additionally I think that this is where politics and culture should rightly divide. For a long time, I have believed that in policy generally, governments and pressure groups have chosen to overlook the considerable strides that have been made on behalf of and by substantial minority groups. The ongoing emphasis on these individual groups is often used in a manipulative way now to promote the interests of the wealthier people in those groups to the detriment of all of modest income. Consequently, the political focus should shift to the differences between wealthier and poorer. This is especially true given that such a shift would still be helping huge numbers of people from ethnic and other non-majority backgrounds - that is, the ones who really need additional assistance along with other people. In contrast, I would argue that in certain cultural areas - and classical music must be a key example - the social mobility of people from ethnic backgrounds has been less great than in many other areas of society. That, therefore, can and does justify initiatives where ethnicity is the principal guide.

[Richard Barrett]

Moving right on... I finally had the chance to listen to some of the programme, namely the first and last pieces. I found Hannah Kendall's piece disappointingly middle of the road, very much the kind of thing that many well-educated and -behaved younger British composers produce for Proms concerts. It seemed to be very well played though. I didn't know the Rimsky either and didn't find it very interesting, but again the playing was at a high standard, making the most of its colouristic opportunities. I'd like to have been at the concert though.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If you look at the photo I posted (which didn't exactly take long to find) it's easy to see why Chi-Chi started this orchestra

I'm not sure what you are referring to. We know the Vienna Philharmonic's historic resistance to women members, but at least they're doing something about it and Utopia will take a while, unless they sack lots of existing male players, and scrap the (very good) policy of requiring Philharmonic players a long apprenticeship at the State Opera. As for the ethnicity question, the violinist 2nd from right on the front row may well represent the low percentage of non-white people in Austria, but I'm probably wrong about that.

This orchestra chooses the best players it can (rejecting Sibelius), and is unlikely to go in the direction of tokenism, and I'm sure the violinist in question was chosen entirely on merit, which is as it should be , or would you prefer ethnicity to be a better way to select or reject players?

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure what you are referring to. We know the Vienna Philharmonic's historic resistance to women members, but at least they're doing something about it and Utopia will take a while, unless they sack lots of existing male players, and scrap the (very good) policy of requiring Philharmonic players a long apprenticeship at the State Opera. As for the ethnicity question, the violinist 2nd from right on the front row may well represent the low percentage of non-white people in Austria, but I'm probably wrong about that.

This orchestra chooses the best players it can (rejecting Sibelius), and is unlikely to go in the direction of tokenism, and I'm sure the violinist in question was chosen entirely on merit, which is as it should be , or would you prefer ethnicity to be a better way to select or reject players?

Aaaah of course
The reason that women have been under represented in orchestras is that they obviously lack the "merit" that men obviously have?

Being unable to recognise when one is speaking from a position of privilege is a problem that you seem unwilling to recognise.

It's not for those in positions of power to ramble on about how it will "take a while".

Your empathy bypass seems to be working well.

LOOK at the photo
That is what most people think orchestral music is about
White men dressed up in fancy clothes
Nothing wrong with being a white man BUT it's obvious to see why Chi-Chi (who isn't white and isn't a man) created the ensemble.
I notice she is still playing in the OAE so it's not that she is trying to isolate herself and the musicians in Chineke from the rest of music
BUT it's bl**dy obvious why this is a great idea

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When the argument is weak and ill-thought out, attack the person. Then put words into the other's mouth.

[MrGongGong]

When the argument is weak and ill-thought out, attack the person.

Have you bothered to ASK anyone involved in this ensemble about it?
I guess not?
BUT rather like to sit on your high horse telling everyone how to do things
How lovely

[Richard Barrett]

the violinist 2nd from right on the front row may well represent the low percentage of non-white people in Austria

Don't be silly - a prestigious international orchestra like the VPO is going to contain players from very many countries apart from Austria! FF has already asked how long you think it will be before the VPO has representative proportions of female and non-white players in its ranks. Care to guess? Without positive discrimination it will obviously take very many years. Once again: you haven't advanced a single idea as a counterargument to the existence of ensembles like Chineke.

[Tony Halstead]

6 ladies I think Tony! Front centre, front one from the right, front one from the left, second row four from the right (auburn hair with, I think, a cello), two top back left - percussionists?

Many thanks, Richard, you are indeed 'lynx-eyed'! Part of my problem is that I have a cataract in my right eye that's not yet ready to be 'zapped'...but that's 'another story' that need not concern us here!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Especially when, as in this case, the principles that Alpie has repeatedly made clear he shares, are best represented, best achieved by such positive action. What are the alternatives? Compel existing orchestras to employ a representative number of BME players, (presumably necessitating the sacking of some of their current personnel)? Hoping that things will "sort themselves out in the fullness of time" (and regarding the unemployment of BME classical Musicians currently seeking work as a regrettable but necessary consequence)? Or creating an ensemble of (to quote their "mission statement") players "predominantly from BME backgrounds" - in itself a huge range of communities - and with the additional remit of introducing more children from deprived social backgrounds to the opportunities that the repertoire offers them? Or .... (over to you, Alpie - I can't think of a "fourth way").

Some interesting points here. I wonder whether the real isssue is the one of the demise of free instrumental tuition, since the late 1980s. Costs to parents have been increasing at an alarming rate, limiting the take-up to those with reasonably affluent parents. Music services that have survived are forced to see potential students as a business opportunity, and in spite of human compassion still being in evidence, it is being sidelined. Correcting this is the way forward, as it affects everyone - not just minorities.

As for the race issue, it should never be allowed to rear its ugly head. So the Daily Mail and the Daily Express should be weeded out for prosecution when they publish hate-inciting headlines. It's much too late to tickle the problem with initiatives which, however well-intentioned, are likely to perpetuate the situation by making divisions appear acceptable.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Once again: you haven't advanced a single idea as a counterargument to the existence of ensembles like Chineke.

. I have. You just haven't been listening.

[Richard Barrett]

initiatives which, however well-intentioned, are likely to perpetuate the situation by making divisions appear acceptable

Once more, exactly how does it make divisions appear acceptable and how is it going to perpetuate "the situation"? You've repeated this assertion several times and asked several times to account for it, but you haven't done so.

You use this word "divisions" rather often in this discussion, as if you imagine the sides of this division are somehow equal, whereas "the situation" is in fact a matter of massive economic and cultural inequality between a dominant racial group and the others. Once this huge imbalance is redressed there might be some sense in what you're saying. But it isn't, and nothing you've said suggests that you favour any attempt whatsoever to address it, apart from sitting around and waiting. Of course it is a problem caused to a significant extent by government policies over decades - but if you were sat talking to Chi-chi Nwanoku would you really be telling her "don't do this, first we need to change educational policy"? She would laugh in your face and rightly so.

[Richard Barrett]

You just haven't been listening.

Sorry for my obtuseness, then, but I've just looked again through every post you've made in this thread and found only that you claim this initiative is wrong, with not a single practical suggestion for how things might be done better. If there's something I missed, please feel free to point it out!